saschaw

There will be an ultimative book on Bavarian MVOs and MVKs, but I think it will take yet one or two years. He wants it to be perfect. In the mean time, I've heard, there will be a total roll published of all interresting MVOs and MVKs, from 1866 to the end. Ask anything about MVOs and MVKs in about two years, and you'll get the answers we have been waiting for decands now. :whistle:

I found again the thread where I had typed in the award numbers of Bavarian last issue MVKs without swords. Just some weeks ago... "I finally found closer information on MVKs 3rd modell in Orden-Militaria-Magazin #41, June 1991. On peace time ribbon, there were awarded up to August 1914: MVK 1st class with the crown: 6 MVK 1st class: 9 MVK 2nd class with the crown: 39 MVK 2nd class: 59 MVK 3rd class with the crown: 6 MVK 3rd class: none (sic!) Oddly, there were three more awarded in war time on peace time ribbon: MVK 1st class: 2 MVK 2nd class with the crown: 1 And, what I never had heard of before, Beamte did get the crosses without swords on "Kriegsverdienst" ribbon (but that was the so-called "Beamtenband"!) between August 1914 and July 26th 1915. This adds: MVK 1st class with the crown: 26 MVK 1st class: 367 MVK 2nd class with the crown: 475 MVK 2nd class: 177 MVK 3rd class with the crown: 71 MVK 3rd class: 24. With decree from 26th july 1915, those Beamte were entitled to get swords for their crosses, and we can assume most did get these, as they meant "in front of the enemy decorated". I have hardly ever seen a real MVK 3rd modell issue without swords (well, now we know why), but the article shows two crosses 2nd class - both real silver. I don't know when they did change but, well... not all at Nimmergut's opus magnum is correct. I'd rather not buy a Alpacca silvered 3rd modell 2nd class without swords. You might add swords (or rather a cross with swords, if you believe in the cross) and this is a very, very nice bar."

An altered cross, for sure. It still has the matching ribbon for a cross with swords! The 3rd class was instituted in 1913, and in peace time (1913/14) there were ZERO of this class awarded on peace time ribbon. In the first two years of WW1 they were given on Beamten ribbon without swords, still only a hand full (sorry, don't have the number handy). Later, those Beamte were authorized to get swords onto their crosses, and most might have done this. I can hardly imagine there's more than a dozen of REAL ones around... and that many have one in their collection... :unsure:

By the way, this is the closest I could find. I should have tried in an elderly rank list...

The reverse is opened (and Godet, by the way). All other ribbons use matching "guts", so I'm pretty sure assuming there used to be somewhat black and white Prussian in 2nd place. 95% sure, 5% doubts. Are you sure there's still no chance? I know it's nothing to be done in five minutes, but EK + KO4X or RAO4X or MEZ2 + XXV + BMV whatever exactely with one more foreign decoration but nothing else on the bar...

As Rick asked to see some "new" stuff, here's a medal bar I think I haven't shown before here. When I bought it, it had some phantasy decorations on, but I removed anything that was modern non-sense "replacement". So this is what we could work with: EK2, a Prussian award for 1866 on black-white ribbon (most likely RAO4X, KO4X or MEZ2), DA and a Bavarian MVO - no way to tell which... alive in 1897... All I'm missing is a 1880s rank list to hunt him down...

Actually I did not want to answer any of your threads unless you post SCANs of your stuff, as you promised... Great picture! The missing orders on the bar are of Italian origin. To lazy to look up at Nimmergut's "Orden Europas" for today... I'd try Church State and Sicily, or maybe Parma...

Well okay, not Fähndrich... thank you! If you knew...

Close up of his decorations:

I'm having this framed, nice portrait for some years now and realized it it still actually not named. It has the name handwritten, but... can someone read it? I could not... I think it most likely has to be OSA dL aD Dr. Karl Fähndrich who can be found with exactely this three awards on the (pre-war) medal bar: LD1, BFL, RKM3. But he is listed with a BZ3aX, not BZ3bXE! Do you think it is still him, and how can this happen?

Great group and if it came with - even unproven - name Heim, it is quite obvious his, I think. China in steel would be wrong for ANYONE who was THERE, and it has to be bronze from another reason: the reverse motto is "Den Siegreichen Streitern".

Great bar, and great research parade. When I saw the bar I was sure it's identifiable and most likely a General's - but this plenty of information found within a day is just.... wow.

Great thread, thank you! I'm selling my 1938 medal right now on eBay, and would be glad if it found a new good home... ;o( http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=15506&item=250480391729

Mhh sorry, but I do not touch any ribbon bar that comes from this "Gentlemen" from Saxony-Anhalt, as I just don't know which ones are good. Most aren't.

He actually had six, with five on the bar: don't forget his EK1. One more possibility for a Leutnant with some more awards is a bumped-up Ex-NCO who has some more years of service...

Text book Ohio fake. Forum search might bring up some more information on Ohio ribbon bar fakes.

Lovely bar! "Unfortunally" to a civilian, makes it a bit more complicated. He's not wearing a long service award but actually should, if he were an Oberstleutnant level officer - and from RAO4/KO3 he were. Most likely an ex-officer. Are there any rolls of British awards (and medals) to Germans?

Nice found... but I thought... "no shows for Ricky" ?! Did any of you catch a photo of this US $900.- bar? Would love just to see... but not to touch, I fear I could not even afford this. Cannot be your bar as well an Oberst's or General's who has yet (at least) RAO2E and got stuck on his ooold KO4 or KO3? Not that I could offer you a possible wearer, but I don't see anything to exclude this 2nd possibility. ;)

Not an expert but would not touch this third one. That's why I said two real ones in one thread is an exception. ;o(

That's right. Several hundered thounds were awarded like this. Much rather the first, I think. A typical replacement cross.

Offered by whom? I now have a quite long list (in mind) with "black sheep". Could you please PM me, to prevent problems... ;o(

Thanks Gentlemen for your work However, I'vwe been e-mailed that not only Lts von Linde-Suden and Busse got a KO4X in 1912 (11th June) and had nothing else, but that there's been a third one: Stabsarzt Dr. Pentschke! So I assume we cannot norrow it down to one? Well, two or three is also not bad... thanks! PS: I alway wonderded when they started to produce mini battle clasps for the 1915 ribbon bars... it seems they startet outright.

And the DOA1912 has just EK2 and KO4X (or maybe RAO4X), but in this case, this might be the clue... does Ludvigsen's statistic give numbers for KO4X awarded in 1912... ? :rolleyes:

Actually, they are as easy they can get. The WHDA40 is only a Beamter's with nothing else peculiar on...

Quite old guy...