Claudius

Saving medals?!? Saving what? From too much uniform showing through. Lady Godiva could be clothed with that array. It's the European equivalent to the Senninbari belt.

I don't want to hijack this thread. If fact I think the photos of these medal bars could have its own thread. They are incredible! (or at least I like these bars from the lower ranks) I would love to see them today. I wonder what happened to them. Museums. Private collections. Or were they all lost when they were just taken apart and destroyed after the revolution? It makes the little two-er that I have seem really puny.

nice! A list of "x" number is better than "who knows how may could have fit this combination..."

Hello!? Is it possible to refine the recipient to a list of possibles?

I don't think it is anything to be disappointed about. Just gazing at the first several awards on his medal bar and I knew he didn't perform an act of single, outstanding bravery. But that doesn't take anything away from the bar. It's a great officer with pre-war, wartime and after the war service with a couple of countries. that windmill around his neck.

Hello Misiu; Now that you have the bar, could you provide us with some better photos? I would especially like to see a better reverse and detail of how the awards are attached to the bar. But I will say that even with those photos I may not have comforting words about the medal bar. The Estonia White Cross award (in last place) is on the wrong ribbon. The ribbon in third place (with the Finnish Liberty cross hanging from it) is a match. It would appear that the Estonia White Cross should move to the third ribbon position. The Finnish Liberty Cross doesn’t have a ribbon to move to. The last place ribbon does appear to be the Finnish 1918 Commemorative Medal. Either that or the Polish Order of Military Virtue Cross. All the ribbons appear to be in an equal state of wear, except for the Bulgarian that seems to have received extra aging. Based on these observations, and how the medals are attached, I would venture the theory that the medals were ADDED later to a legit ribbon bar in order to enhance their appearance to a would-be buyer. The seller researched the ribbon patterns and purchased the awards. Buying the nearest correct award for each ribbon pattern. Then handed the awards and bar over to a seamstress to attach them. At that time the Estonia White Cross was put on the wrong ribbon. A Finnish Liberty Cross was included and all were attached each like hanging fruit from the bottoms of the ribbon bar. That would be one theory. The second is that ribbon bar is also fraudulent. Not just the combination, but the strange wrapping pattern may bear that out.

Does that make it "more" rare/interesting or "less" rare/common? Additionally, could someone comment again as to why the wearer wanted a spangenstück for his medalbar? Did he keep the original in his drawer, or did he lose it

Great bar Mikko! Superb cross-section of German states plus the Finnish and Turkish awards! Can you photo the back too?

Hello John; Let me be the first to welcome you to the GMIC website. I see you have a family interest in militaria. Great! The badge and logbook are wonderful mementos to your grandfather. I think you will find some really great people on this website with a variety of backgrounds and knowledge bases. I think there are some here that could help you with your logbook translations. When you can, please post the pages. But before you photo the logbook could you post some photos of the reverse. I know you said that the inscription doesn't show up, but everyone here likes to see the reverse sides of these badges. -Claudius

"The awards combination could be quite unique... (Prussia, Bavaria, Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Anhalt, KuK Österreich-Ungarn)" I would say so...the awards are an awesome swath across five states/countries. How does a such a junior officer get such a variety of awards? This is a question not only for this bar, but for many. It was usually just accepted before, but with more bars being identified with the history of the units, does anyone have a standing theory?

Hello Jerry; You cross across many points and ask several questions but I think your main point is the last thing you mention. "You would like to know enough not to get taken or spend too much money." A very good goal. I don't have the perfect panacea for identifying ALL fakes from 1970 to today, but I have a best practice to follow. 1) Buy from dealers that have been around long time and will guarantee the authenticity or your money back. 2) Buy and read some of the good books on medals, orders, and medal bars. 3) Go to shows and handle a lot of good pieces and notice things like; construction and authentic aging. 4) If you do get something, post photos on this forum for other's opinions of the piece. Good hunting.

Hello Tim and, as one of its members, welcome to the GMIC! We love to see your Netherlands and Belgium militaria, if you care to post any of it. "the medals were found by the people who cleaned if afterwards in and old blanket chest in the attic..almost a to good to be true story..." Yes, it is a good story that all medal collectors love to hear. Furniture sold in auction, but the blanket chest was overlooked. Medals on the death pillow, but none of the funerary ribbons, dried flowers or funeral cards and well-wishers that a family would keep from the ceremony. All very clean and with no extraneous detritus. From what you told us there isn't much to evaluate on further, however since these medals came from castle that the inhabitant just died, it would be valuable to know which castle. From there, it shouldn’t be too hard to learn the names of the last owners (important, because it might not have belonged to the last occupant). I think this will narrow down the recipient faster than the known 73 awarded Waldeck list would. ...But we really need the name of that castle. As for the medals; this does look like a real Ordenskissen, but I have my doubts that it is a period assembly. The medals and orders appear real, but they are all individually parade mounted. The layout of the medals on the pillow looks a little modern to me. Do the medals even belong to one man? The Centennial medal ribbon is filthy(a good sign), but the Red Eagle's ribbon (similar age) is pristine. The VW has rust(?). Could use some better photos of the awards, and reverses. I know that you will have to remove them from the pillow, but this will also let you examine the pin holes in the pillow. If these medals were attached undisturbed for the last 80 years they will should look like they have been undisturbed for 80 years. There is more to learn here....

Outstanding document to go with the award. So, there is no doubt that the award was from post-abdication service. I noticed that the eagles on the St. Stan have imperial crowns. They were awarding surplus orders.

Thank you Paul and Nick for looking. It must have been just a small event that warranted the award.

No need to wonder....he earned Long Service 3rd class, a Long Service 2nd class and an EK2 in 1917. Kyffhauser-Bund and HK after the war. Nice piece: Thanks.

That's what I'm trying to find out. http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/58436-anyone-have-the-ships-pre-wwi-history-for-sms-yorck/#entry544390 Either the ship visited Russia (St. Petersburg?), or an Imperial Russian delegation came to his ship. As you already know, the “Medal of Zeal" can be interpreted as “Medal for Good Service”. He was already an Oberbootmaat with a nine year service bar in 1907. He must have had a position of small responsibility during the royal visit that they gave him this token of regard for his " good service". I just wish I knew the circumstances.

Hello Larry; No, I haven't seen these sites. Thank you These are some nice research websites. Unfortunately there is nothing noted about 1907. It appears that any other history regarding this vessel is overshadowed by its naval collision in March 1913 with the Destroyer S178 and its WWI activity. The music on the website....a nice touch.

reverse of ribbon mount. (note the simple "safety pin" attachment device.)

reverse. (the coin strike is exceptional)

Here is the Medal of Zeal awarded to a German Sailor in August 1907 while serving aboard the SMS Yorck.

Hello Veteran; Thank you for your input. I didn't know anything about this medal, but I couldn't resist the similarities it had to the Verdun medal. Now that I know it was produced before WWI, I should say that the Verdun medal resembles this medal. Oh, I agree with you Veteran regarding how a German sailor came to own this medal. Whether "taken" or "given", found or inherited there doesn't appear to be any conclusive evidence one way or another. All that I do know is that this sailor had extensive pre-WWI service on many different ships that traveled abroad. (Kobe Japan was one such stop). Thanks again for your knowledge on this medal.

Hello Paul; This helps a lot! And perhaps changes the possible circumstances of how this German sailor obtained this medal. Oberbootmaat Dombrowski already earned the Long Service 2nd Class (15 years) in 1911 and served on a list of ships, before WWI. Instead of taking the medal as a war prize during WWI, maybe prior to the war, when in a French port of call a French man gave it to him as a friendly token. I'm just so surprised that I have not come across another example. Thank you again Paul.

reverse...