Ulsterman

wow!!! I LOVE the 59' Jubilees. Did it come with a doc?

continued (4)...... ......"Daubenkropf is NOT listed in Brunswicks' 1902 Court and Staat Handbook, so he was dead before then. The absence of the 1897 Wilhelm 1 Centenary medal suggests either he was dead before that date, OR he had the awards he did not want to reuse (but saved) remounted. In 1905 however, the prussians' Orders List (newest edition for all living award holders since 1895) STILL listed him as "Stabsveternaer aD in Braunschweig. Apparently Prussian Orders Chancery had not ...yet..heard of his death. In my transcription of German award rolls, marginal notes often reveal returns made many years after a recipient's death. In 1877 Ober-Rossarzt Daubenkropf held only the EK2w and the BrRm (did I mention only 79 were awarded between 1869 and 1913?) . He would have earned his Brunswick 25 year Service cross in 1882, just before the medal was abolished. His KO was bestowed on January 18, 1884. Hussar regiment 17 is of course the famous "Death's Head" Hussars- or the 'Black Hussars", which were the inspiration-some say- of the Allgemeine SS's unforms. (Note by Ulsterman): I suspect cousin Rick may be wrong about the good Rossarzts' not ever being in France in 1870-71. The 17th Hussars were in a number of battles -notably Mars le Tour. I suspect if I can locate the Geschcihte of Husar Regt 17, we will find he was there. Finis

continued....(3) ...." For some reason I can only be thankful for, over more than 100 years this bar AS IT IS was kept decently after all returnable decorations had been dispatched to the Orders chanceries. This is what the medal bar would have looked like, insofar as I can recreate it, in late 1885-90. The Brunswick Lifesaving medal here is a fake-nicely 'hallmarked' on the rim too. Remember, these are INSANELY rare . It rides a little high because it has to be slipped OVER the original's suspension clip and ring. The recipient was (drum roll here)........ Hussar Regiment 17's Regiment's Pferdarzt and Ober-Rossarzt....Heinrich Theodor Gottlieb Daubenkropf. He attended the Prussian School of Veterinary Medicine in 1850-1854. The Berlin Frei Universiaet maintains an on-line album and there, miracle of miracles, Daubenkorpf's portrait photo in uniform from 1860 can be found. Draubenkropf served as regimental veterinarian from 1857 until retiring in April of 1885. This is where the tale gets really interesting......."

continued........ "For some reason, there seems to have been a definite prejudice against Brunswickers receiving the 1870 EK. In the case of the "white-black" ribboned ones.......after a long, slow, tedious verifying of less than a dozen potential recipients...REALLY a prejudice against brunswickers. There were far more awarded to the more recently occupied Hanovarians and hessen-Nassauers. The NEXT step in this process, of course, was to compare the EK2w suspects with recipients of the prussian Crown Order-for that is what ribbon 5 was. Hurs and hours and hours were spent hunched over Gothic typeface, flipping slowly and carefully through old Ordenslisten. Bingo! ONE suspect with an EK2w, KO4 and a Brunswick service...ONE! But ..alas, Brunswicks' forces were 'independent' until the Military Convention of 1886-even under Prussian occupation and 'regency'. I do not have ANY Brunswick sources before World War One. The only available list of Brunswick Lifesaving Medal holders I have ever seen dates from 1915...in that years' Court and Staat Handbook. But 'my' suspect wasn't in it. He was dead. This is a post-mortem bar."

I believe the awards of this and other awards were usually noted in the Papal register-published weekly since @ 1600 or so? I have seen awards lists in my local Bishops' palace.

From Rick on the island of no internet access......and lost toys Cut To The Bone... "This one came to the house in October to visit. There are a number of reasons why one sometimes encounters stripped medal bars. The GOOD reason would have been that the original recipients' next of kin dutifully returned all the awards that were required to be legally sent back and....kept whatever was left. One BAD reason is that the bar was neglected and fell victim to damp...or the nibbling of small rodents and was "harvested". Another VERY BAD reason all too often involves "collectors" (actually jackals) ripping things apart because they want either single pieces or to sell items for a higher price. There is no way to tell which THIS medal bar was ...until researching it. The ribbons are in decent condition. 1. Some grade of Brunswick House Order. From the position of the 'ghost' ring, probably a merit cross in either gold or silver...either of which could have had swords from 1870 or 1866. 2. A Brunswick long service award. From the rest of the bar- almost certainly an officers' 25 year cross, rather than the NCO's version. 3. Prussian EK2 (1870) on non-combatant ribbon. THIS one bears a "nub" on top of the upper arms ' edge which my late guru (George Seymour) always associated mainly with the Brunswick groups. For some reason this one does not have the jump ring sodered to that "Brunswick nub". the small ring , instead, is fore-and-aft through a hole (which appears made that way) through the flat rim of the upper arm. 4. Prussian Crown order ribbon.....or other things? Note the "ghost ring". 5. A dark green ribbon. Hmmmmmmmm.......In another bar with other awards any number of interesting things could have been possible. BUT, on a Brunswick medal bar, the insanely RARE Brunswick Lifesaving Medal (always found in such precedence=sigh=) is not only logical...but the original suspension and "bar" are still there! The medal was twisted off like a coin! ARGHHH!!!!!! 6. The 1870/71 war medal. Ribbon for combatants and (illogically) regular stay-at-homes. The medal present, which is nickled brass- NOT the original steel, would indicate a stay-at-home who never crossed the frontier. So we have a non-combatant Brunswicker, vet. of 1870/71. That narrows it down phenominally...once every holder of the noncom. EK2 is reviewed and checked (twice) from the 1877 orders list supplement. There were only 4,097 awarded." (stay tuned-next installment tonight-please refrain from comments until I finish the next 3 pages-Ta!)

very cool. That second one really has me pondering...

NSKK Standartenfuehrer von Chelius is probably in the Adelbuch. I think he is the grandson of the WW1 It is notable that he joined the NSDAP in one of the later dates allowed so his number was @ 3-4 million . It appears as if he was in the NSKK at the time on service as an auxi with the Wehrmacht. So, what NSKK units were near Kolowo? See here for his family: http://www.geni.com/...000001782302614 I suspect he is the grandson of the WW1 General and artillery hero of 1866.

Diplomats and higher ranked bureaucrats in Europe wore full dress uniforms @ 100 years ago. I reckon by the "uhlan style" that it is a tunic for a coachman (a clothing style popular with people who have to ride horses), but all sorts of minor dutchies etc. had special uniforms. perhaps the key is the coat or arms on the buttons! Can we see those please? Who made the buttons (Manufacturers' name on back). If you do a search here you will see lots of pictures of diplomats in full dress @ 1900.

...any chance it's a diplomats' tunic?

I think he's some sort of Medico-Rat........I reckon the keys are the Oldenburg medals and the Red Cross 2nd class. the 2nd class wasn't given out often and required some sort of Red Cross service, not just a donation.

Eeee By Gum. In my day it was a only a test pattern, Noggin the Nog and Open University ("Today's Learning Russian lesson: Food") at this time of day.

Really? I had no idea they were reissued. :o

wow! :jumping: That's a splendid bar. :love: How did he rate the Coronation medal?

Hmmmmm...ok then. Have you seen 'Project Hougomont" on Facebook at all? There are some bewilderingly good researchers there and i am trying to lure them here.... :)

Maybe both? His website was/is awesome. Here it would a HUGE draw of imperialists (hihi).

Ta Kev. Lucky I got to the thread before Chris B. did; his response at Defcon One level might've brought the site down.

...um...is it possible that the signature actually reads Muelhuard?

Germaniajim - To be blunt- Nazis and white supremacists are not welcome here: I have deleted your post and deleted you. Bugger off. See here pal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPZuYwYxnL4

Interesting that he did not get a Hamburg Hansakreuz....esp. as an NCO.

Outstanding research Tony!!!! Bravo!

A quick review of google images and the Life archives shows that there were IB badges and insignia made during the war. But like the IBs themselves, they were not "uniform" but a hodge-podge. The most interesting one I have seen is owned by a British (of course) vet in London on the BBC website. It is aluminum (I think), circular and has the tripod on it. There are photos of IB members wearing this "tinnie" on their berets and jackets.

Fantastic!!!! I love a complete story.

Having said that...if one wrote to the Secretary of Defense and inquired, you might get a response. Sometimes a letter works wonders (esp. if you planned one day to perhaps return this "lost" item to the family).

sort of- one can tell the era by the number. there is a list of awardees in the Pentagon, BUT it is secret. I asked and a friend of mine (who has one) inquired, but it's not for distribution for privacy, security, liability reasons etc. etc.