Wild Card

I am not into Austrian, but dedehansen that is one beautiful little bar :love:

Yes. Very nice and quite rare as a mini.

Yes, I agree. I cannot find a match. An unofficial medal commemorating an (wedding?) anniversary.

Gentlemen, I can tell you that you have to see this bar (in person) to really appreciate it. Congratulations Beau! :cheers:

Maybe a loyal son of Baden making a statement? The Bavarians and Saxons, to a lesser degree, did it a lot.

Great stuff! Thank you for posting it. Above all, it is good to know that this material has been rescued from oblivion.

I agree with Streptile. Chains of the 1870-1 era tend to be the 4 hole (I. Godet) type whereas those with later decorations tend to be on the J. Godet type. Exactly when this change took place, I can’t say; but around 1890-5 makes sense.

Using the two above awards shown above, I would like to propose a theory regarding the rarity of Kursk awards. As I understand it, the Battle of Kursk theater of operations covered an area of around 30,000 square kilometers. The battle(s) consisted of two Axis force attacks, one from the north and the other from the south, which were approximately 150kilometers from each other. Neither really advanced more than 40 kilometers. This means that the Axis ground forces never got as close as forty, or so, kilometers of Kursk itself. Therefore, the “Battle of Kursk” was a series of battles which were planned, by the Axis command, to culminate with the capture of Kursk, but fell far short of achieving that objective; and the term “The Battle of Kursk” became something of a reference point for all of these individual conflicts. When that term came into use I do not know. Was it used during the battle (I am inclined to think not), or did it come about at a later time being coined as an all inclusive event? Notice the language in the two citations mentioned above. Neither of them mention Kursk and yet both are clearly awarded for the Battle of Kursk. In Colonel Kramar’s citation the linkage Headquarters Central Front, July operations) is easy to identify, but Lt. Col. Girich’s citation is a little more complicated although the methodology is the same. Basically, all we have to do is establish where the 23rd Gds. Rifle Corps was on 10 July 1943. It is even more helpful if one can find Klyuchi-Veseloe, Prokhorovsky and/or Verhnyaya Olshanka Prokhorovka. In the end, based on this information, I think that it is safe to say that comrade Girich could proudly tell his grandchildren that he bravely defended The Motherland at The Battle of Kursk. So the point that I would like to make is that there could well be more awards for the Battle of Kursk than we know, or recognize. We are not going to see a lot of awards named for the Battle of Kursk, but rather have to determine the recipient’s unit, where that unit was during the first weeks of July 1943 and whether the award was given for actions, or whatever, during that time frame. In closing, I must confess that, especially compared to most members of this forum, I am not that knowledgeable on this subject. Consequently, I welcome any corrections and encourage the posting of additional thoughts and material. Thank you. Wild Card

Next is another Order of the Patriotic War, this time 2nd class, #148930. This order was issued on to Gds. Lt. Col. Vasily Pavlovich Girich, Chief of Personnel Section & Personnel Administration, HQ 23rd Gds. Rifle Corps. In this case, the Award is for (among other things) “On 10 July near the village of Klyuchi-Veseloe, Prokhorovsky region during an onslaught of a numerically superior enemy force, the defending units began to withdraw and the threat of an enemy penetration and breakout developed near Verhnyaya Olshanka Prokhorovka. In a group with other officers, Comrade Girich, accomplishing the order of the corps commander, organized a blocking position... organized a defense... ” .

Gentlemen, In the thread “Red Star Awarded for Battle of Kursk” an interesting point was raised with regard to the rarity of decorations and awards for The Battle of Kursk. Rather than send Soviet 1000’s thread off in another direction, I thought that we could use a separate thread dedicated to this question of rarity and for posting Kursk awards. I would like to start by presenting Order of the Patriotic War, 1st class, #15515 which was issued on 6 August 1943 to Col. Vladimir Mikhaylovich Kramar, assistant operational department commander, Headquarters of the Central Front. The award citation notes that “During the July operations, comrade Kramar strenuously worked...”.

It certainly would not deter him. Personally, I feel that the best way to deal with such people is to not deal with them at all. Consider it.

Thanks. I've cooled off now. :beer:

If my comments do not fit your parameters, please feel free to delete it. I understand. I have had it with this business! I have been collecting Imperial German orders and decorations for over thirty-five years and still can't tell a Hessen-Kassel Order of the Golden Lion knight’s cross from a Hessek-Kassel Wilhelm’s Order knight’s cross. Going by the OEK, there are over 2,500 diffferent Imperial German different orders and decorations; and nobody knows everything that there is to know about each one of them. When I started collecting, I made some mistakes. In the ensuing years I have made others. For a number of years,in my ignorance, I innocently enjoyed picking up a medal or two at local gun shows; and then one day, a dealer told me about OMSA. I tracked it down, joined and found out that throughout the world there is a small community of very diverse and otherwise normal people who collect these things. It opened the door to the world wide medal collecting community, or at least a good part of it. It was, in great part, a result of the kindness, patience and sharing of knowledge by many of the great collectors, and dealers of that time that I was encouraged to follow this passion. I'm sure that many of my questions strained their patience. We all make mistakes; but if you don’t ask, you won’t learn; and, as I see it, one of the most important purposes of GMIC is the exchange of information from which we can all learn. I would just like to ask for patience and understanding when responding to questions, especially from those who are just getting started. I aim this mainly ay our senior and more knowledgable members; and by that I don’t necessarily mean those who having been collecting the longest. There are still many people out there, both beginners and who have been collecting for a long time, who are out of the loop and do not know about the wealth of knowledge available to them from sources such as GMIC, WAF and OMSA. Patience, Gentlemen, patience. We’ve all been there. Thank you, Wild Card

Go ahead redeagleorder, wish something bad... very bad. :violent:

I have to put myself in this category. At the same time, I had the good fortune of "growing up" under the guidance of Eric Ludvigsen and George Seymour, so minimal damage was done. I also completely agree with this statement. I am often frustrated when I see "innocent" collectors fleeced by the same crooks time after time. It is unfortunate that these people cannot join the information mainstream. Feel sorry for that, not their lack of knowledge.

:speechless1: Another victim!

:jumping: :cheers:

Possibly (I think that it would be a stretch), but the "V.d.e.R.S.H" clasp raises questions.

You raise a good point here. Reflecting back over the years, it seems that I have seen more Hero Stars for forcing the Dnieper than awards for anything related to Kursk.

Well done Dave, thank you :cheers:

At first glance, I would call it a "Hohenzollern" ribbon.

A pre war award?

Yes.

Thank you Dave. :cheers:

So, we know that this bar goes no earlier than 1863, and the reverse does put it in that era.