Les

Marshall, That was my take on this one also. It's not any of the Wagner types (gold or silver-gilt). Tim could be right that this is an older cast copy. The current Spanish copy has a squared off look to it. For example, on this one, the eagle heads are rounded instead of having the large flat "back" of the heads with hard right angles of the current Spanish copy. There also seem to be other slight differences such as the interior bend of the wings (the protuberance on the bend of the wings seen on the Spanish copy); the "blocky" fonts, thicker/thinner legs, etc. Les

Lufti.... Vielleicht Blondi??????? Don't forget the fondness a boy/man has for his dog. Les

Vince, I'm not all that well versed in matters "TR", ...but, that caveat being said, I recall reading that "Italian" medals were often removed from ribbon and medal bars in late 1943 and 1944, once Italian t forces withdrew from the war and either surrendered to the Allies or were disarmed and interned by German forces in Italy. The presence of an Italian medal on your uncles's chest/bar suggests 1942 or 1943...and prior to the 1944/1945. Interesting how some medals can come and go....much like Brian's grandfather's Japanese and Russian medals being removed during WWI, but "politically correct" for pre-1914, or post 1919. Les

During the postwar Allied occupation, Germans were forbidden to wear or display -any- Imperial or TR era medals. This was carried over through the early Federal period until the Germans changed the law(s) in 1957. At that time, TR era medals were "de-nazified" and many Imperial medals were also restruck. S&L made copies are not rare, and probably many hundreds if not thousands were made. If you look at enough of these, there are qualitative differences among them suggesting a long production life, and resulting die wear over time. Steve's comment about a "lack of feet" is not true of the earliest made S&L items. I have two in my collection that do in fact, have very small but obvious feet. They are quite delicate looking, and (later?) other S&L examples don't have them, suggesting the delicate nature of the die engraving of the feet on what might be the earliest examples, were worn or damaged through enough useage, that the feet were removed or "cleaned up". The same type of wear appears to effect the eagle heads, and possibly other areas of the dies with delicate line work. On original examples, some writers have commented on what they say is a decline in workmanship on finishing the heads of the eagles, etc. Some of the earlier silver gilt (Wagner-Fr) examples have eagle heads with clearly defined details and a "cowlick" of feathers at the back of the eagle's heads. This 'cowlick' is missing on the later war Wagner/Fr pieces. The 'cowlick' is delicate enough that over time, die wear may have affected that aspect of the eagle heads and "cleaned up" by the jeweler doing the hand finishing, or even the working die(s) being cleaned up. The S&L "PlMs" arguably, show indications of a similar process....long use resulting in die wear and subtle changes over time. Steve, in comment #3, you mention "other jeweler pieces" in conjunction with the small number of original wartime PlMs with the connected "U=R"..... I haven't handled Berthold's gold example, and am reluctant to comment on it at length based on the use of photographs. Elsewhere on this forum, I've posted photos of a later war silver gilt example with connected letters. That one I -have- handled personally, and also have taken several high resolution photos of and compared it to other wartime examples. This example with the exception of the connected letters, has enough specific and identical features that it can be said to have been made from Wagner/Friedlander dies during the war. It is an "OEM" ("original equipment manufacturer")piece. I've shared several photos of this example with Marshall ("Biro"), and if you have any doubts of my opionion of this piece (and by the way, Detlev Niemann sold this piece some time back with his COA attached), feel free to querry him for an independant opinion. The "jeweler" term is a loaded one that carries connotations. The silver gilt one example referred to is a Wagner made example, and Wagner was of course a medals and order maker, as well as a "jeweler." Referring to an orignal manufacturer's piece as a "jeweler" example raises hackles in some quarters, the same was a referring to a "knock off" piece offered on ebay as a "jeweler copy" does. Les

Stogie (Rick) These first appeared right around 1999/2000, and for a short while, were being offered at a hefty price. Even Detlev had one on his web-site not all that long ago, for something like $6000 and described as a "post war copy." A fellow forum member knows the person who had these commissioned, and supposedly the dies for this strike were broken and this particular item isn't being made anymore. The same person who had these commissioned, also had a number of TR items reproduced (Knights Cross, oakleaves, German Cross in silver, etc). I don't know how many of these were made and then sold after the first few were sold off before anyone learned there was a "new" fake on the market. Obviously, more than a few of these were made. There is probably also some turn over of these items by people who either bought these thinking they were real and on discovery the item wasn't was it was claimed to be, resorted to dumping it on someone else, or...bought the item for speculation/resale on ebay, etc thinking they could make a nice profit. The "wholesale price" of these was circa $400 a few years ago which isn't that much different from the current market price of a 1950's S&L product. Picking one up, fabricating a story to go with it, and then listing it on ebay with the hopes of getting $1000 or more and doubling your investment (and sometimes more than that) is a big temptation for many. Les

Steve, The seller has been selling the same version on ebay for quite some time. Every few weeks or months, he lists another one, exactly like the other ones. Even without making comparisons to other known "minis", consider this: The "minis" are usually not all that well made, and they don't appear to have been stamped out from the same set of dies. "Michaelju" seems to have an unlimited stock of ones, and the fact they are identical is a -very- strong indication of them being recently made for the "collector" market. Without going into the long version of why, yours wasn't made pre-1945..... Les

Dave..... What you don't know (and now will) is that -I- acquired this very same tunic from the person that got it from you. It's residing quietly (and for the "duration" of my earthly existence) in my collection. I'm curious about where it came from and how you came to acquire the tunic? Dealer purchase, collector, or from somewhere else? Les

What? Not --one-- mention of duct tape????? Any fan of the Red Green Show and general handyman type would have found at least one place or use for the stuff on that job... Les

K?nigliches M?nzamt Stuttgart? Not quite so fast guys..... There is at least one other royal mint with the lettters "ST" at the beginning of it's name. There was also a royal mint house at.....Stettin (now Czeczin in Poland). Can "K?nigliches M?nzamt St(ettin)" be ruled out? Les

Very nice cases indeed! Micha, the red cases are the most common. If you're going to collect these little gems, some of these cases are a dark red/brown or maroon color. Les

Mike, I saw the helmet for a brief period of time before it was re-sold and never saw it again. I didn't have a camera with me at the time (pre-digital days), and consequently couldn't document it. Les

Marshall, Thanks. You've sent me a copy of that one, and I have it filed. The lack of the "Hindenburg" suggests pre-1934. I suspect that once Germany began re-arming in the mid-late 1930's, that Godet and other medal makers/suppliers ramped up their marketing, production, and sales. I'm curious whether Godet (and a few other Imperial makers/suppliers) continued making/selling Imperial -orders- once LDO came on the scene, and if catlogues from the jewelers reflected both "LDO" items and non-LDO items. This question still remains from earlier discussions/queries I've raised on oanother forum, and which one well-known author was unable to supply -any- substantive answer even when invited to respond, despite a pending publication on one Imperial order. Les

Mike, Two comments: (1) the one with the Hohenzollern crest has the correct style crest without the little black border seen in Baer's book. However......I don't think this particular one is good. If you do an archives search here on GMIC a while back I posted a grouping that belonged to a KIA officer of the 1te G.R.z.F. and a camo helmet with the correct crest on it. In that photo you can even see where the camo had been applied over the first crest, and another painted on. Take a look at mine for one that's what it's cracked up to be. One of the things I've noticed about genuine helmets with the Hohenzollern crest is they tend to be small, and are hand-painted. The lines where white/black meet are seldom all that straight. What I look for on anything with old white paint, is the color, and texture of the paint. Almost all paints used at that time were lead-based (for adhesion to metal, etc, and smoothing the surface out). This gives some paints (particulary white) a thick look), and also over time, white starts to loose it's "pure white" appearance quickly through contact with dirt, grime, and so on, and begins turning a off-white/cream color. If you picked this one up, there's a quick test that can be done on the paint(s) that is completely non-destructive. Environmental consulting firms that test for, and remove lead based paints from homes, buildings, etc, often use what looks like a radar gun to test for lead. They calibrate the machine, and if held up to something, it not only provides information whether lead is present, but in what percentages. The cost for doing this kind of test is less than you'd pay on lunch at a fast food outlet. The base color of the helmet should have lead as a siccative to adhere to the bare metal, and either the black or white paint should also. If you get it tested, and -no- lead is present, send that baby back. (2) A story.... About ten years ago, I was at a gun show, and had a table with a few items set up near the front door. Rick Keller of Great War Militaria came over and while talking to me, stepped behind my table and I was standing facing him on the "crowd" or public side. I saw him looking at someone, and he yelled "Is that for sale, and what's the price on it?". I turned around and saw someone starting to hand Keller a cut-out helmet with the crown down....at -my- table. Keller took the helmet and the guy told him the moment he handed it to him, $600. Keller paused less than five seconds, reached for his wallet and gave the guy the money. I was a bit annoyed that it was my buying/sellign space, and not even given the chance to sniff the item before someone else stepped in and bought it. I got a chance to look at it once the sale was over, and the rim looked good, size markings were correct, etc, paint looked like it matched the rest of the helmet, and so o n. Before the show was over, Keller sold the helmet to a good friend of mine for $800. About six months later, my friend accidentally knocked the helmet off a shelf. It hit the floor, and part of the inside rim cracked and came right off the helmet! It was a carefully done fake that was cut, rolled, and another piece of metal had been soldered onto the inner rim of the cut out and then smoothed out and carefully painted. The mighty morphin Czech helmet fakers had done an amazingly good job and if it hadn't been for the accidentaly drop/break, my friend might still have that fake helmet. He got his money back, but it took time and the dealer who was innocent of any person wrong doing fought repayment like a whale about to be beached near a rendering plant. Les

Does anyone know of, or have any Godet catalogues printed between 1936 and 1941? Even single sheet issues for advertising purposes? Les

Shortish answer...a qualified yes. I'd call the two divisions the "heart" of the overll Garde, once the garde was expanded beyond it's pre-war OB. Chris, by 1918, there were five Garde divisions. The 1st and 2te were the original parent formations, and during 1917 when the other divsions were in the formative stages, experienced cadre units (and also veteran enlisted men) were taken from the first two divisions to form the basis of the next three divisions. The strength and fighting abilities of both units were close, but the 1te and 2te were a bit better because they retained their leadership structure and although there was a large infusion on new recruits into the ranks, command/control factors gave them an edge over fighting abilities of the new formations. From a purely "class" point of view, the Germans associated a fair amount of prestige with specific regiments, and family connections and associations within those units. In otherwords, the very thin upper crust of German society went into units like the Garde Kurrasier, and 1st or 2nd Garde zu Fuss. BEcause the number of officer slots in any regiment were limited, usually the eldest or most highly connected sons were accepted, and the younger sons went to other slightly less prestigious units. Considering the prestige and social status of the first two divisions, they tended to be well-provided for in terms of equipment, making losses in manpower good (with the best drafts from home), etc. They did slightly better than the other three, and on the battlefield did better than the newer formations. That differences given time, experiences, and officers who "grew" into their leadership slots, would have resulted in an overall Garde structure that went beyond "name only" status. That help? Les

"Get thee -clean- disposable cotton gloves, for handling all matters military." The Book of Ralph, chapter 1, verse 1. Ralph makes many good points, but try not to handle cloth, and if you must, use gloves. Also, try to keep it out of places where it will allow dust, mold, mildew, and related problems affect the material. The "silver thread" can be made either by using all metallic thread (brittle and prone to breakage especially after it's been oxidized), or metallic thread wrapped around a textile core. Usually, it's the latter method. With "wrapped" threads, the silver or metallic thread is prone to breakage, and and center core of cotton (or whatever) increasingly begins to show. Anything -rubbed- into the braid is going to be forced into the fabric of the underlying threads and cloth. Do as little as possible. If it's a matter of removing dirt, a light sponging with a slightly water only moistened cloth (use the dab method, not the scrubbing side to side, etc methods) is about as far as anyone should try to do at home. The body of the garment is best kept as dry as possible, and a -very- light brushing will remove some of the major dirt. Then put it away, handle it as little as possible, keep it out of direct sunlight, and if you must handle it....use clean cotton gloves. Les

Although Prussia wasn't technically an "ally", the Prussian state existed during the occupation period as a 'vassal' state of the French Empire. Prussia was luckier than other Germanic states along the Rhine that were "dissolved" by Napoleon and either reformed as new states (the Kingdom of Westphalia for example) or in the case of the western bank of the Rhine, any national identity "obliterated" by Napoleonic decree, absorbed and proclaimed part of metropolitan France. Les

Many collectors like a certain degree of wear or chipping to the enamel, etc, on a PlM instead of one that's absolutely pristine. In fact, most PlM's do have some degree of wear or chipping, and the wear according to some gives a PlM "character" or a recognizable identity that allows the piece to be recognized even when shown with others. Considering how "rare" and sought after -any- real WWI era PlM -made- by Wagner or Godet is, condition is often of secondary importance to someone wanting a documented piece, or even one with no attribution at all. Les

Friedl?nder is often cited as a "manufacturer" of PlMs during the WWI era, although a close comparison of pieces with the "FR" Ritzmarke to those made by Wagner, raise questions whether Friedl?nder was an actual maker of the awards, or simply bought medals from Wagner and resold them with their own firm's marking on the pieces. The presence of the same exact die flaws on "Friedl?nder" marked pieces, are seen on Wagner made PlMs, the only way this could have happened is if -one- firm made the same identical dies used to make the products sold by both firms. In short, there is a considerable amount of evidence indicating there are only -two- official manufacturers of the PlM during WWI, not three. There is however, evidence that Friedl?nder was only a -retailer- of the medal, and -not- a manufacturer of the PlM. The difference is not simple semantics. The difference between a manufacturer and retailer is quite different and an important distinction. Les

The PlMs from that period are a "seat of the pants" kind of thing when considering buying one. They lack the general consistency of ones made for example, after the 1860's. Considering how much handwork goes into making one from this period, and for example, the hand applied lettering, proclaiming one of these as good/bad can be "iffy" at best. There are things to look for with regards to the type of period work involved, materials used and construction techniues, but even if all of the details are right, that doesn't mean the item is real or not. Consider how dangerous buying an 1813 era EKI or EKII is, and look at the state of the art with regards to fakes. The more the amount of handworkmanship that goes into making a period piece, the easier it may be to make a fake.... During the Napoleonic era, -numerous- PlMs were handed out to Prussians, German allies, Russians, and others who were on the "winning side." That being said, I'm not so sure the piece Dan posted was made -during- the War of Liberation (1813-1815), but after the war. Edkins (and a few others) claim the Russians made copies of the PlM and used crowned eagles. What Edkins and those making those statements don't provide however, is names of Russian jewelers who made them. I'm with Brian on this, that documentation is very important with regards to making claims that pieces are this or that, especially with regards to hand made pieces from this era and the lack of standardization in worksmanship, materials, etc. Les

Chris, I'm not sure about your use of Japanese eras.... Showa is the period from 1926 to 1989, which is -after- the Meiji period (1868-1912). "Shinto" swords are from the period 1597-1780 and post-date the Japanese civil war and old "Heian" type swords. A "Gunto" type sword generally refers to any sword in Japanese Imperial Army or Navy mounts. Check out the following link for a thumb-nail definition of eras and sword types. http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/period.htm A "Showa-shinto" sword is a specific term used to apply to swords made following the Japanese-Russian war of 1905, and the expansion and changes that took place in the Japanese military prior to the beginning of WWII. The term "Gunto" is probably closer to the mark when speaking of military hardware or fittings on swords, but fails to indicate some of the cultural and social factors driving the stylistics of sword making at the time, and Japanese military culture taking it's clues on direction from the past, rather than developing newer concepts. Not every sword made during the "Showa" period was intended for use as a purely military arm. The sword in traditional Japanese culture was far more than a "sword" and can be seen as an artistic and technological development, and additionally with cultural overtones that overlap "military" or "samurai" traditions. IMO...the "cult" of the Japanese sword somtimes seems overdone, and overly compicated. Listening to sword colletors (Nippon-jin, and Namban-jin alike) swapping terminology is sometimes like listening to art collectors or beer drinkers debating the "finer" points of whichever or whatever is better. Les

Paul, they are realitvely cheap, and I've been using them for some time now. They don't seem to bother house-hold pets either. Les

Nick, Spot on. Permit me a small digression which puts a wole different light on the idea of "family" once you think of some basic biology and math. I know folks are often proud (or ashamed) of what someone in their family may have done, but there's a saying, if you go back far enough, we're -all- related, and I don't mean that in a biblical sense that all of us came from the characters of some particular religions's depiction of the creation and how manking came into being. We got here (and any brothers and sisters) thanks to two people, our parents. Our parents were produced by two sets, which means we have four grandparents; our grandparents by their parents, etc. Each generation doubles the number of people. Go back ten generations, and that generational "doubling" means all of us had 1184 biological parents (related to each other is another matter). Now, add each doubled generation up. Our two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, and by the tenth generation we have a total of -2356- direct ancestors. If you take the time and trouble to flesh out the rest of the family trees with brothers, sisters (who become aunts and uncles through the generations, and people who have married into the family, or into someone elses', it becomes clear -ALL- of us are co-mingled far more than a small town of West Virginia coal miners who have lived in the same spot for almost 200 years. Go back 20 generations, and that figure is well over the six-figure mark! Think about the simple biological and mathematical aspects of "family" and it becomes apparent go back far enough, and all of us are indeed related. That makes a dog's breakfast about racial theories, one cultural or national group being better or worse than another. For those of us studying general history, military history, we shouldn't get hung up over what we think someone else's family did or didn't do, because we're all related to each other in some degree or another. By that token, -all- of us have had black sheep in the family, and some that represented the best of humanity. We're all "family" in a sense. Now, back to our regular scheduled programming, and the topic of Silesian eagles? Sorry for the digression, but this comment didn't seem worth an entirely seperate thread. Les

Mike, Japanese swords have layers of hard and soft steel, and a tempered edge. Trying to straighten one would be tricky and in the process the sword could develop a crack during the process. The first thing to do is know whether the sword is (1) historically important enough to justify having the work done, and (2) if it's an expensive item. If it's a relatively cheap "Showa" or "Showa-gunto", or mass produced sword made for NCO's or officers who might not have been able to carry a family heirloom (more than two or three sons in the service and that could happen), then there's a way to do it at home. Finish on Japanese swords is highly prized, but on a cheap one, you're not risking a great deal if you try getting two long blocks of a relatively soft well-seasoned wood without sap or moisture, putting the stripped down blade between the blocks and very slowly putting pressure on both sides towards the center at the same time. You won't get the "kink" out entirely because bent metal often develops a "ridge" or line. Even when flattened out, there might be a slight shaow or discolored area in the metal due to it being flexed one way, and then back the other. If the blade fits in the "saya" or scabbard without having to force it....I'd leave everything alone even if taking the blade out and putting it back over time has left a scuffed metal surface. Polishing the surface to remove any imperfection afterwards is always "iffy." The surface temper pattern and damascus type finish will be altered and you'll get whatever is under the surface, and possibly an entirely new pattern you (or collectors) might not like...or worse yet, carbon pockets, flaws, hidden breaks not seen on the surface, etc. That doesn't say who to go to, but you might try contacting the commercial or cultural attache at the Japanese Embassy (or a consulate) and ask if they know of any sword shows "back home" and for people you could contact directly. If at all possible, try not to send the sword to Japan for any contemplated work. Most often swords get returned, but if a culturally important sword gets sent to Japan, there have been cases where it wasn't returned. Les

There's a need for some statistics on units raised and who the leaders and their reasons for raising units, or being part of a unit's leadersip, and if possible information on then and later political ideology. The rank and file of Freikorps units would be a major challenge to try to come up with stats on, but it's possible there were specific differences between officers, NCOs, and the almost invisible simple soldiers that made presumably made up the bulk of these units. If you look at specific Freikorps units, there might be a chance to determine what patterns exist. For example, there's good old Ritter von Epp who started a Freikorp unit, and then went on to become not only a member of the NDSAP, but rose rather high in the party food-chain. (Let's note that von Epps unit could be consider "internal" rather than a border unit, however, let's also remember Bavaria might be a special case in that it was a "republic" for a while, and arguably not part of Germany for a short while. ;-) Some of his folowers include Ernst Roehm who not only joined the NSDAP, but rose to become high enough in the party food chain (and the SA) that he could have posed a considerable threat to Adolph and company. A third example is Reinhard, former CO of the 3rd Ft. Gardes, PlM recipient, Freikorp founder, and....joined the NDSAP, was a "ranking officer" in the SS, and so on. "Cherry picking" names without any stats or numbers isn't proof of one thing or another. Ulster, I agree there's a Ph.D. thesis in there. An article could state many things, but there needs to be some detailed numbers, affiliations, and so on. Granted there were some seemingly bad apples among the Friekorp vets that joined the party, and/or served on during the inter-wars period of during WWII. Ricks' photo of the kindly old grandfather type is a photo and photos can be -very- decptive. I've met more than a few WWII vets (not only Germans) who did things that most of us probably wouldn't believe if someone pointed them out as they were walking by and whispered something in our ear about them. There's an adage: never judge a book by it's cover, or a woman by her looks. Les