peter monahan

In what may have been regarded as a dangerous burst of liberalism, the British Army in 1827 passed a regulation which, in theory, allowed non C of E types to fall out when Church parade was called, presumably to practice their own bizarre religious rituals. It would, however, have been a brave man who actually asked for and got that dispensation from the CO! Michael has the right of it: CE, RC or jankers were still the real choices at least as late as the 1950s in the Canadian Army!. Prior to that, and probably after, it seems to have been the case that Irish Catholics who had evaded the regulations and actually gotten commissions were given dispensations by their bishops to attend C of E church parades without committing a sin, as church parade would not have been optional for officers!. In a side note, when Michael and I were attending a Catholic college at the University of Toronto in the late 1970s, going down to ther Anglican cathedral on a Sunday to hear the choir and smell the incense - we RCs weeren't doing that much by then - was considered risque and possibly even slightly subversive! The purpose of a church parade was, at least in the mind of the NCOs, to have the men parade! Spiritual sustenance, if any, would have been a fringe benefit. Patrick O'Brien probably had it right when he suggests that Sunday service on a British man of war was part of the comforting routine - a kind of spiritual mental blanket rather than a spiritual experience as we would understand it, especially given that on many occasions the sermon was replaced by the recitation of a list of capital crimes which the congregants might be charged with! After all, until the 1960's the RC Mass was said in Latin, hardly a language in common use and any number of Orthodox denominations still use Greek, Arabic, Ukrainian and so on for congrgations who are not proficient in those languages. There was an NCO of the Royal Artillery in the 1810's who retired, went to Bible college and returned to Halifax, Canada in the 1820s, where he founded a chapel. In fact, the garrison chaplain (C of E) was in the embarassing position of having to ask to use his chapel for church parades because the garrison had nothing suitable. He was very highly thought of and when he passed away some of his pall bearers were officers of the Halifax garrison, but that was sufficiently unusual that it was widely reported. On short, church parade in the abstract was undoubtedly about religion and spirituality but in practice was often more likely a reflection of a tried and true rationale for many large organizations: "Because that's how we do it!" Peter

Of course you heard about the chap on a visit to Australia who, when asked by Immigration if he had a criminal record responded "I didn't know that was still a requirement." [ducking for cover now]

Yes! What he said! Didn't mean to make light of this great reference source. I'll bookmark it for the next time I see Her Majesty on a state visit and ask myself "What on earth is she wearing round her neck/on her dress?" Peter

A fascinating collection alright, though I think I would class a number of the awards as "interesting" rather than "beuatiful". I won't offend anyone by naming names! [i think I may be a closet art snob. ]

"I think we might be confusing two different units" D'oh! Brain fart! You are right, of course. The unit I described was the Arab Legion, not the JFF. Sorry!

Yes, this is a Davidson Nile Medal. A very nice find! It is interesting to try and establish the way in which these early awards were regarded - certainly not in the same way as campaign medals today. Legend has it that the Boulton's Trafalgar medal, awarded in base medal to ordinary seamen, was often nailed to the mainmast of the ship and pried off and taken away when the wearer tansferred to another ship. There is also, I believe, one account of the sailors receiving their medals and, on establishing that they were not precious metal and therefore unsaleable, tossing them over the side! "If you can't drink it, screw it or sell it, f**k it." I wonder how many of Mr. Davidson's gifts received the same cavalier treatment. How times have changed! Peter

Colonel [later General?] John Baqot Glubb - "Glub Pasha" - was the founder of the Force a noted British "Arab-phile". The Force took part in the first Arab-Israeli conflicts and Glubb wrote a history of the region, though not specifically of the unit, which I read and enjoyed many years ago. At the time it was formed, the British were just beginning to have trouble with the Zionist national movement in what would become the state of Israel and, not surprisingly, Glubb was not very eneoumered of Jewish Palentinians. Anyeway, the book is worth a read. I don't know if there is a unit history - it was small and realtively short lived. I believe that the force had less than a dozen British officers and the rank and file were Arab. The rank and file wore the well known 'checked table cloth' - a shammagh [turban] in red and white check with a camel hair cord, called an 'aggal'. The caps may have been worn by the men in full dress or by officers only - this one is clearly an officer's but eiother way it has to be rare. Yes the lamb, called "Astrakhan" or "Persian lamb" is from fetal sheep, hence the tiny tight curls. Worn in various places in the Middle East and by some Russian cossack units. Very warm and quite dashing in one ignores the 'yuck' factor! My dad wore on for years and I did as well, when younger. the cadets at Canada's Royal Military College - our Sandhurst, wore a grey astrackan wedge cap with a scarlet bag. Very classy!

It would be nice to think that the thief/thieves had qualms of conscience but I suspect the real answer is that the fuss stirred up in the press - I assume there was a lot of publicity - persuaded him/them that they'd get caught trying to flog the medal. However, they're back, which is the good news! Hope the lenders aren't going to take all their treasures home! Peter

I'd say "Well done, Canada!" but Canadians are far too self-effacing to cheer ourselves on. In fact, we're well known for it. If you bump into a Canadian on the sidewalk ['pavement'], he or she apologizes to you! Seriously, though: I think we often forget the day to day heroism of police, fire fighters and ordinary citizens, perhaps because their acts are deeemd not as 'sexy' or showy as the defusing IEDs and rescuing comrades under enemy fire. I am proud to be a Canadian and bask in their glow. Huzzah!

Kipling also spent some years in India as an adult, writing for one of the English newspapers in the Punjab. That is the genesis of his 'Soldiers Three' stories and many of the other tales set in the subcontinent. Kipling's son John was only 17 and in poor health but his father used his influence to get the boy into the Irish Guards. John was posted 'missing in action' within the year. There has been some debate over the body of a subaltern of the Ir Guards buried in France during the war but I also recollect news stroies some years ago now which had John's body being found by a construction crew in the reamins of a bombed out [and buried] farm house, complete with monogrammed effects and a prtly written letter to clinch the ID. Kipling wrote a poem, "My Son John" about the death and his grief, and perhaps guilt at helping John enlist, were eveident. he wrote the history of the Irish guards in WWI and was a key figure in founding the Imperial War Graves Commission [later Commonwealth WGC]. The phrase "known unto God" on the stone of unidentified soldiers wa apparently Kipling's suggestion.

The actual story, and it is from The Corps of Guides, earky in its history, is as follows: A Pathan recruit deserted, taking his rifle with him. Colonel Younghusband - unit founder - called in the other 4 men of the same sub-clan of the tribe as the deserter, told them to strip off their uniforms and leave the unit in disgrace, only returning if they could bring the stolen firle with them.. They did so and were gone some years but 3 of the 4 eventually returned with the rifle. Apparently no questions were asked as to how they got it or the fate of the deserter. The story may be in Chevenix-Trench's book on Frontier irregular scout units, but I can't put my hand on my copy. Here is a site for Younfghusband's History of the Corps: http://www.archive.org/stream/storyofguides00youniala#page/n259/mode/2up .

When I taught in Nigeria, in the early '80s, some of my students had difficulty with distinguishing "F" and "P". Not that odd, if you look at how letter sounds are formed . Having my class monitor offer to "fark" my motorbike alway sounded vaguely indecent but the prize was the class during which one of the lads, reading from one of Romeo's better known speeches, informed Juliet, with great feeling that "Farting is such sweet sorrow." Probably the closest I came in a long career to totally losing it in front of a class and collapsing on the floor in a flurry of giggles! Peter

I must confess to having repeated something I once read to the effect that there was a fad among 19th Century british light cavalry officers for dropping the letters 'l' and 'r' and replacing it with a 'w', as in 'Wubbish' rather than 'Rubbish!' This was allegedly based on the speech of the infamous Earl of Cardigan. However, honesty compells me to say that, after some little hunting on-line, I can find no reliebale references to this phenomenon, except in the writings of George MacDonald Fraser: in the Flashman series, Cardigan invariably refers to the main character as "Fwashman" and utters the "Wubbish" exclamation referenced above. So, not sure whether that was a factual reference, as are many of the fine details in Fraser's work or a bit of literary licence. Again, It may have been the case, that thea variant of the 'upper class' accent in the late 19th/early 20th century which included some, presumably deliberate, oddities. The one which comes to mind was the habit of using 'me' for the possessive 'my', as in "Me gout is acting up again, blast it!". Again, however, my references are literary and not linguistic. For what it's worth! Peter

Nice catch! I spent two years in Nigeria and never even thought about them having a navy, though of course they would. I did meet a few officers from the armoured brigade stationed in our statwe capital, most of whom had trained at Fort Knox. They all thought the US was great and wanted to go back to visit.

Yes, the translation of 'naib' is 'vice', so in this context 'vice-subedar'.

Looks good on them! WARNING: Possible Drabinsky just lost his appeal of the conviction but had his sentence reduced from 7 years to 5, while his crony got down to 4 from 6. The point was made on a news show that 5 years now for a crime committed in 2007 isn't exactly going to have the other white collar crooks running for cover, but I suppose its better than nothing. I can think of a few others I'd love to see stripped too, but since 'lying b**tard' seems to be part of the job description, as opposed to a criticism, of 21st century politicians it seems unlikely I'll get my wish. :banger:

Philip I'm afraid I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic to track down your family group, but QSA Mike's post refers to someone who might be a good bet to know. Also, I corresponded, many years ago, with a chap in Singapore who's interest was Indian Army cavalry, most specifically the Mutiny period. If he's still out there he may have some clues too. PM me for his name. Peter

Now that's a group! Nine Service medals. Any info. on where/when the group left the family's hands? It may be that GMIC members know the person who got the group. Even a general time frame and general location [uK, USA,...?] would help. Peter

Well done! looks as if you got that lot you wanted! Peter

My only contribution, as uniforms are not my particular interest, is that the Dress Regulations for the Indian Army, at least as late as 1900, were compiled by sending a questionnaire round to regiments and publishing what they sent back! In some cases this included scrupulously detailed descriptions of the up to eight or ten orders of dress for British Officers in mounte units - mounted Dress, mounted Undress, mounted field service and so on. In other cases, it appears as a list of the orders of dress each followed by the phrase 'to/in the regimental pattern'. This suggests to me that the whole concept of 'uniform', as meaning 'the same' was only vaguely understood or adhered to under the Raj. There is also the well known penchant for volunteer units - the Auxilliary Force, India, for example - to do whatever they wanted vis-a-vis uniforms and, in many cases, get away with it! I would suggest, therefore, that if the jacket was made for an Indian unit, regular or volunteer, evidence leading to a positive ID will be photographic, not written. My tuppence worth! Peter

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire didn't actually say it in those words, but it's what he meant. Yes, it means we have to let French Canadian 'separatists' who have been democratically elected to our national parliament try to dissolve the very country they have been elected to help rule. Sadly, it also means we have to let hateful people say hateful things, whether to gays, 'other races' or the families of thbiose who gave their lives to defend, among other things, the right to say what they want. "Bad cases make bad law." The SVA seems to me to be a classic example of this truism: using an axe to swat a fly. Common sense, sadly not as common as common as one thinks, and using our own freedom of speech, are a far more effective answer to both demogogues and glory thieves. Unfortunately, they are slower and a lot more work than leaning on our legislators every time somebody does something we disapprove of. Rights never come free and clear. The phrase is, and must be, "rights AND responsibilities" and part of the responsibility is making sure that the liers and thieves get called on their actions. Unless American legislators are an order of magnitude brighter and more logical than any others in the world, I won't give them carte blanche to do my thinking for me! Without getting into cases, its no secret that lawmakers vote on laws they've never actually read all the way through. [see Michael Moore's Capitalism: A Love Affair for examples.] Let's put the SVA to bed and instead scream long and loud, or even pound on, the valour thieves. Shouldn't be hard to get an audience! My two cents worth. Peter

British forces in France included both the Chinese Labour Corps and Maltese labourers so it woudln't be at all surprising if a waterways unit included what were referred to in the period as "Lascars" - sea-going labourers from India and other places in the East. 'Singho' certainly has the sound of a South Asian name rendered by an English enlistment/employment clerk! Largely unsung in history, such men did invaluable work, alongside the RA Service Corps, railway troops and other support units. Interesting medal! Peter

Yes, thank you, Ed. I don't think anyone would feel bad about 'shedding an unmanly tear' over this one. God bless them, one and all.

Or he just decided that it was such a lovely decoration that he had to have one! I'd have been tempted myself: the ED is one of the most aesthetically beautiful British awards, IMHO. As to administrative mix-ups and such, I wish I had a beer for every Legion guy I've met or heard of who added a medal to his group because, "except for the *&##^$ regulation, I earned it fair and square"! Drives we logical types crazy when we can't make the group fit the regulations. Let me know if you get tired of that one, Mervyn. Peter

Wow indeed! It looks as if soemone is investing time in refurbishing one or more of them. Any word on who or where they're being 'done' or on their eventual fate?