Schießplatzmeister

Hello Misiu: Thank you for discussing this fantastic group. This group probably belonged to Kanonier Joseph Roth of a FAR who was awarded the MKFVM on March 4, 1871. I do not think that the €5.000 price is too out of line. If you add-up the values of the original awards and consider the fact that the recipient is known, in auction, there would be strong bidding for this group and this price would probably be reached without much problem. From what I see, the bar is 100% original (even with the low-resolution photo and without seeing the reverse). Best regards, "SPM" ps: By the way, the rarest and most desirable award on this bar is not the OZL Merit Cross, it is the Military Karl Friedrich Order Merit Medal.

Hello: This is a nice Deschler piece with the case and a piece of ribbon for officials. I would estimate the value in the range of US$225-$275. Note that this is a "bayerische Miltär-Verdienstkreuz" (Bavarian Military MERIT Cross) which was an award associated with merit and not service. Bavaria had distinct awards for service which were not related to this item. A nice piece that looks to be original (forgeries do exist). How much was the seller asking for it? Best regards, "SPM"

Hello: This is a nice Deschler piece with the case and a piece of ribbon for officials. I would estimate the value in the range of US$225-$275. Note that this is a "bayerische Miltär-Verdienstkreuz" (Bavarian Military MERIT Cross) which was an award associated with merit and not service. Bavaria had distinct awards for service which were not related to this item. A nice piece that looks to be original (forgeries do exist). How much was the seller asking for it? Best regards, "SPM"

Hello again: Fishing used to frustrate me often too! The "fun factor" in collecting Imperial Orders and Decorations is not there often anymore for me either. It has become hard work keeping vigilant of forgeries, problems with the postal system, etc. Without inspecting the pieces firsthand, it is rather difficult to make any proper analysis. Sascha pointed out that there are cast copies about. I have not personally inspected one of these yet. My suggestion would be to search-out a copy and to get good photographs of it. Perhaps this will help to know what to avoid. I would certainly wait to purchase a piece until you have studied a few copies and a few genuine pieces. There are undoubtedly many original pieces on groups that members on this forum own. Perhaps someone will post some photos of these pieces which may help a bit. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Viliam: You are correct, these awards are relatively uncommon and much under-valued. I believe that Mr. Turk at www.emedals.ca has at least one example available currently in his listings and there are some photos there. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Chris: It is the ribbon for the 3rd Reich "Luftschutz Ehrenzeichen 1. oder 2. Stufe" (Air Raid Protection Service Award 1st or 2nd Class). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Chris: Sadly, you are correct! I do beg to differ a bit though and think that "pondscum" is too complimentary for these types of individuals. There will be a day soon where these types of items will no longer be on public display due to this type of criminal activity. "SPM"

Hello Sergio: The medal is definately not "original". "Original" (awarded) pieces were struck in steel and are magnetic. This piece appears to be a period (1930's) privately-made piece for veterans. It is therefore a valid collectible item and not a modern-day forgery made to deceive collectors (which would be worthless in my opinion). From what I see of the group and the field ribbon bar, there are no problems and everything seems to be as it should be. Congratulations! "SPM" ps: A general word of caution, just because a piece is found on any dealer's website, this should not give it 100% creedence. Dealers are human (they don't know everything and can make mistakes). That being said, I personally have never had a problem with Mr. Weitze and believe that he is one of the better dealers. There are other dealers to be found that are very dishonest however.

Hello Chris: The estimate was 300,000 to 500,000 pounds sterling. So, the starting bid was probably 250,000-300,000 pounds sterling or so. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: I just checked the "prices realised" list from the October 22nd sale and the Star to Admiral Lord Nelson was withdrawn from the sale or unsold. I guess that the horrid economy is taking a bit of a toll on prospective bidders for items of this type! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Daniel: Welcome to the forum! The website regarding your grandfather is wonderfully done. I enjoyed reading it very much. I would like to point out another great research tool right here in our "backyard" which I have used in the past. It is the Leo Baeck Institute in New York. They are most helpful and have a great many resources available. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Timo: Thank you for sharing the photos of this medal. This example looks like it is probably die-struck. It also looks to be bronze that was silvered. It is not one of the many types of modern forgeries circulating. I believe that it is a quality piece made for the private purchase of veterans. It could have been made as late as the 1960's for this purpose. The ribbon also looks to be post-1945. An interesting piece. Best regards, "SPM"

Excellent Christophe! Does anyone know if there are PFLHO rolls out there? If so, this ribbon bar could be identified possibly. As the Army/Oldenburg PFLHO/Austrian Order of the Iron Crown combination narrows it down a bit more. "SPM"

Yes, unless the pieces stolen ages ago ever surface again somewhere. If they did, I am certain that the legal wrangling to get them back the the heirs of the rightful owner would take decades. The Crown would also possibly claim them as a national treasure?? I am not certain who had legal possession of them when they were on display at Greenwich. "SPM"

In my opinion, it would be rather difficult to ID this Officer. The EK and FAK are of course wartime awards. Everything else is pre-war. The FAK is the award that to me opens the possibility of a naval connection. However, there are no China, DSWA, nor Colonial Campaign medals as one would usually expect on a naval bar with 1897 through 1914 service. There are also no Hanseatic City-State crosses. I would imagine that several Officers (naval and army) existed which had this combination. If only Rick would return from his exile we could come out of the dark ages here on the forum! A nice ribbon bar that looks original. So, be patient, an ID might be possible but not likely. Congratulations on a nice piece for your collection. "SPM"

Hello: My vote is the Austrian Order of the Iron Crown. This ribbon bar looks like it may have possibly belonged to a naval officer? "SPM"

Dear GMIC members: This may have been noted already on this website, but I just noticed today that this fantastic piece of history will soon be at auction. www.mortonandeden.com If only I had a bit more pocket change! "SPM"

I believe that the term "forgery" would be more appropriate. "SPM"

Hello again Claudius: The mounting and the medal are old and correct (so no worries there). This medal looks like a privately commissioned die (you will notice a lack of the die-sinker's mark under the neckline of the bust). Veterans often purchased medals from private purveyors to have a bar made up for wear. Regarding the bars, I do not believe that these examples conform to the most commonly encountered originals. Also, they do not look like the most commonly encountered forgeries. They may have been (and most likely were) made by the same supplier as the medal. I am not an expert on these DSWA bars and avoid them on purpose because collecting them is so risky. I believe that our own Heiko does have the expertise to properly judge them. You might want to shoot him a PM to schedule sending him high-quality photos of the bars. I am planning on attending the MAX Show and the SOS and am looking forward to meeting you again. Best regards, "SPM"

I like this one too. All of the ribbons appear to be old and the key piece (the 1866 non-combattant campaign cross) is an officially issued-type piece. There are copies (modern forgeries) of the non-combattant crosses, however, I like the context in this instance! I don't see anything that appears to be a problem with this group. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Claudius: This is an interesting DSWA medal. It appears to be an old private purchase (non-official die) piece. The medal was gilded and this gilding worn off of the obverse through everyday wear or most-likely polishing. The medal was removed from a group. Most group assemblers used whatever pieces of ribbon were extra in their shops for backing use while mounting medals. The campaign clasps are another issue. Copies(forgeries) of these have been around for a long time and can be added to any group or medal at any point. To complicate matters even further, there were a variety of variations of original period items as there pieces were made by a variety of military purveyors. Without holding this piece in hand it is nearly impossible to pass judgement one way or the other regarding the campaign clasps. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Chris: A terrific photo. The MVK II with Swords is very clear in this photo. Looking at the uniform, he is definately an NCO of the Schneeschuh Bataillon. Unfortunately, I do not have enough knowledge regarding uniforms to comment regarding his shako. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Sergio: Thank you for sharing this fantastic group with us. I have never seen an example of the last medal (which I assume is rather uncommon). It is indeed an Allgemeine Elektricitäts-Gesellschaft (AEG) coporately-issued medal for merit and loyalty/faithfulness/devotion. I am not entirely certain of the period of issue, but it looks to be finely made from silver. I would therefore estimate that it was probably awarded prior to the start of WWI or early in the war, but certainly not after 1917. There should be a die-sinker's mark "H. HAHN" under the bust. Congratulations regarding this excellent and unusual group. Best regards, "SPM"

A super group! This is the nicest MVK that I have ever seen (they are usually chipped to varying degrees when found). Hmmmm....this group looks somewhat familiar....I think that I have seen it before somewhere????? Best regards, "SPM"

I wasn't even born yet! I remember George telling me about when he started collecting after the War (WWII) and that he paid only about $50 for Grand Cross sets at that time. It must have been nice not to have to worry about copies, etc. Back then, no one really cared about this stuff. I remember also hearing about George's lament when the OEK was published. After that, even young fools like me could identify and somewhat determine a "value" for Imperial Orders and medals. I really miss George (I hope to someday know even half of what he forgot regarding Imperial German Orders and medals!) and am glad that I got to see his collection in person before it went back to Germany for worldwide re-distribution to other collections. Best regards, "SPM"