6er Frackspange with two Foreign awards

[Claudio]

Dear fellow forumites:

This is the other recent purchase of mine; an unnamed (yet) Frackspange of a Civilian. Notice the beautiful Foreign awards. Maybe this bar can be research since the Royal British Victorian Order (CV=) has a number (308).

Here's the description of the medals:

? Preussen, Roter Adler Orden 4. Klasse, letztes Modell, gek?rnte Arme (OEK 1704)

? Preussen, Kronen Orden 3. Klasse, 2. Modell, Gold und Emaille, Hersteller FR (OEK 1757)

? Oldenburg, Haus- und Verdienstorden Herzog Peter Friedrich Ludwigs, Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse, Gold und Emaille (OEK 1516)

? Russland, St.-Anna-Orden 3. Klasse, Gold und Emaille

? Grossbritannien, K?niglicher Victoria Orden, Ritterkreuz (CVO), Silber vergoldet und emailliert mit Tr?gernummer 308

Also very interesting is the Godet's label on the back with a weird purpore color of the script (woven silk).

Edited August 9, 2006 by Claudio

[Claudio]

A pic of the reverse:

[Gerd Becker]

Thats a lot of enamel, Claudio What a super piece! I hope, its researchable with the numbered British Order. The St-Anna Order is very nice, could you post a closeup?

Another great Bar, wow

[Claudio]

Here's a detailed picture of the last two Foreign orders, as per request.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Paul C]

Is that from the last Theis auction? If so you have have a little luck tracing it.

[Willi]

Claudio, what a beauty! I guess the recipient was in diplomatic service?

[Claudio]

@ Paul: Yes, it came from Thies Auction

@ Willi: Could be... but it is not 100% sure. I think, if this bar was of a Diplomat, you would see more decorations. At those times Diplomats received lots of decorations, for every country they visited or they were assigned for. Or he could have been an honory consul in Germany (a lawyer for instance), for England and Russia. Very difficult to know.

[buellmeister]

Absolutely Stunning!

Joel

[Guest Rick Research]

I regret to inform you that this WAS, indeed identified when it was in George's collection.

The British Orders Chancery WILL NOT release the identity of M.V.O. holders by serial number, yet that was accomplished ... diplomatically through back channels. As I recall, they were happy to receive some 18th or 19th century attributed tinsel breast star as a quid pro quo. Indeed, were you to ask them, they would probably demand the return of a deceased recipient's award, just as with the Danish Orders Chancery and antique Dannebrogs.

I do not, unfortunately, REMEMBER whose bar this was. Ther were soooooo many over sooooo many years, and the ones I have notes on were the not-identified-yets that George sent me xeroxes of in pre-internet days. The dozens and scores we talked about on the phone over the years are a blur.

Yet another casualty of the Thies Raids and the destruction of all of George's collection records.

[Daniel Murphy]

I regret to inform you that this WAS, indeed identified when it was in George's collection.

Another magnificent IDENTIFIED Bar whose history is now lost. Truly this is a crime of the 1st magnitude. The entire lifes work of this man is now gone.

Dan Murphy

Edited August 10, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Willi]

Another magnificent IDENTIFIED Bar whose history is now lost. Truly this is a crime of the 1st magnitude. The entire lifes work of this man is now gone.

Dan Murphy

Where has all the information gone to? Is there nothing left w the family?

[Paul C]

Claudio, It looks like your only alternative to trace the bar is to page through the 1914 Prussian, Saxon and Bavarian Army and Navy ranklists. It will take some time, but nor too long. I would key in on the award from Great Britian. Do you have these ranklists? If not let me know.

[Claudio]

Paul,

I considered that, but what if the wearer was merely a civilian and never been in the army? If he had been in the army (at least officer considering the decorations), also in the reserve he should have worn a long service medal of some sort!

Ciao,

Claudio

[Guest Rick Research]

The recipient was purely civilian. I do not alas recall if he was a Kommerzienrat or a Legationsrat, so you are left to wonder which KIND of civilian, unfortunately.

[derGeneral]

The only word I found : F A N T A S T I C !

[webr55]

Well, there is a way:

Get the DOA 1908/09 CD from Paul, look through the 1700+ pages, and you MIGHT find him.

Of course, only if he had himself listed, had not died before, had already got his awards...

[Paul C]

Now that is a long term project paging through 1700 pages with, I estimate, about 30 entries per page equaling about 50 thousand entries to view. Wouldn't it be nice to have the 1908/09 DOA in spreadsheet searchable format?

[Paul R]

Claudio, I hope that you are able to find the original owner. You always have the best bars!

[Guest Rick Research]

From th best collection to a VERY good home indeed!

[Willi]

From th best collection to a VERY good home indeed!

[Claudio]

We are living in a small world after all... Look what I found on an old German Auction catalogue (Mars & Merkur GmbH and Hermann Historica OHG, Versteigerung seltene Orden M?nchen 12.11.1988). The hammer price at that time was DEM 2'100.- plus commission (15% only!! Today commission fees are at least 20% up to 23% and sometimes you have to add the German VAT also!).

Now, after such a long travel, the bar is in my pawns!!! But I had to pay quite a salty price for that!!

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited August 18, 2006 by Claudio

[Guest Rick Research]

Well, that's ONE we know where he got it from, now! Full circle!

[Ed_Haynes]

There are usually rolls of Royal Victorian Order awards for various foreign junkets by bored British royals. I have the ones for trips to India. Finding these could help, though they do not give numbers.

[Guest Rick Research]

I just came across an article in the Winter 1993 O.R.M.S. "Journal" by Patrick Street listing serial numbers with known years of award. This M.V.O. falls somewhere between 1909 and 1912.

Not MUCH help, but it does suggest that it WILL be possible by flipping through the right editions of the Reichs Handbuch to pick this fellow out. My persistent dim memory is: somebody at the German Embassy in London.

[Claudio]

I just came across an article in the Winter 1993 O.R.M.S. "Journal" by Patrick Street listing serial numbers with known years of award. This M.V.O. falls somewhere between 1909 and 1912.

Not MUCH help, but it does suggest that it WILL be possible by flipping through the right editions of the Reichs Handbuch to pick this fellow out. My persistent dim memory is: somebody at the German Embassy in London.

Hi Rick!

Very good news indeed... I guess you narrow it down quite a lot... I don't think there were many German diplomats being awarded with the MVO...

Ciao,

Claudio