Divided-- By Thies

[Guest Rick Research]

The group of Kapit?n zur See aD Arthur von Killinger (1884-1960/63): hinged so that both "halves" could be connected together (but not WORN that way!!! possibly for wall display by the original owner? Each medal bar with normal pinback) and the lower half of two rows of ribbon bars. George never had the upper row.

[attachmentid=61282]

And yet, where is the ribbon bar which GOES with these medals, which was WITH those medal bars?

[Guest Rick Research]

What wars, generations, and oceans could not divide, Thies has sundered:

[attachmentid=61284]

Have von Killinger's medals already been sold, to vanish (so far) into the global void?

Or is his "rack" ALSO on the upcoming auction?

In which case, someone there in the audience live should seize Thies by the neck and shake him (I'm being charitable) until the ribbon bar is removed from this "odd job lots" meaningless accumulation and put BACK where it SHOULD be

where George HAD it.

(I have had this xerox for almost 30 years, with a copy on my wall all this time, so this is a particular bugaboo of mine to see what has been DONE with the SET. Not a day has passed since Jimmy Carter was President that I have not admired this epitome of a naval career. )

[Stogieman]

My Twin is feeling anger this morning.... he wishes to test his strength and resolve.... be a man, admit you have what he desires before I let loose this Dog of War........

[Riley1965]

That should, NO IS A CRIME!!! What is Theis doing? Is He even thinking beyond his wallet?

Doc

[Ed_Haynes]

I fear we see a mix of greed, ignorance, impatience, and that ever-present fiction that we are the owners of these things we study. While fringe to my interests, I shall not bother with Thies henceforth. Not, of course, that he cares one tiny bit, but I shall sleep a lot better.

Again: Good a reason to make sure your heirs have explicit guidance on what to do and what not to do.

[Guest Rick Research]

One might also remark upon the fact that the second ribbon bar from the top in the "flea market" Too Junky To Bother Looking At Heap

is the match to the miniatures bar immediately underneath that.

But then with attributable (tossed that, too) TWENTY ONE award groups, who could possibly WANT to keep a matched set together? Naaaaaah. Not when it can be split and sold for LESS.

And that sinking feeling in the pit of my soul tells me

that the matching MEDAL bar is spun off all alone as well.

DEFINITELY split up matching pieces of world class collection sets.

Heck, why not tear the minis off and sell each piece separately?

It is a rare thing, boils and germs, when one can witness ONE man single handedly responsible for junking the top collections of an entire continent for the last 50 years-- and their likes will never be again. But you're seeing it happen here.

[Guest Rick Research]

Oh dear. For the person who sent this to me-- it is indeed one of the few bars I was able to identify for George instead of the usual vice versa over the years. Attribution lost per usual but at least THIS time I remember who and what and where the original wearer was.

[attachmentid=61305]

From the group as it was:

Pinbacks and commanders missing. Enemy awards missing removed from pre-war bar. Additional ribbon bars (4 or 5 more, as I remember almost 10 in total) ganz verschollen.

Well, yet again, the Lucky High Bidder can contact me here afterwards for the ID on this one. It's a tricky one because this is an "appearances can be deceiving" group to a VERY odd character indeed.

[Ed_Haynes]

Buddhist detachment, Rick, Buddhist detachment . . . .

[Guest Rick Research]

Inshallah.

At least in the case above, being one of the couple of times I could make George say "wow!" I remember an ID that has been lost.

I feel like that woman who is the last survivor of the Titanic, 12 days old when it sank beneath her.

Like it or not folks, I am the Last Living Memory of the most splendid collection in America's personal details. And since those PERSONAL DETAILS were the very REASON for the collection BEING a collection....

Ah well. What cannot be undone is done.

Maybe I can go to militaria shows and autograph pictures for people.

[Riley1965]

Rick,

That's A GREAT looking bar!!!

Doc

[Guest Rick Research]

And the tricksy bit is: that's a regular officer's XXV... but heem no regular during the war, oh nooooo.

[webr55]

Oh no is all I can say.

This ribbon bar lot is a particular crime - I already thought that.

[Guest Rick Research]

I just realized (the scans are so "eBay" that's why the delayed recognition) that in the Flea Market Pile of ribbon bars--

the tiny sized 5th from the top AND the 5th, 4th, and 3rd from the bottom

ALL GO WITH THE MEDAL BAR AND "SURVIVING" RIBBON BARS GROUP ABOVE.

The three shorter ones are "war awards only" reduced wear fashion. I knew I remembered a bunch more in the group!!!!!

[attachmentid=61332]

My mind simply could not accept the hideous reality of that group being split up, when in my memory it is all in the same storage drawer.

God knows where his removed from pre-war medal bar enemy award, EK1, pinback Oldenburg House Order or his Ernestine Commander X etc etc are NOW.

[Guest Rick Research]

Identity (where is MEDAL bar??? ) of original recipient of THIS group now "recovered" (Daniel's soon to be published W?rttemberg rolls and Lippe-Detmold's here at the Schloss being vital)

[attachmentid=61333]

Again, Lucky High Bidder on the minis can contact me here afterwards for the ID. As an "invisible" officer, without access to the key wartime rolls (unless the COMPLETE group remains fixed in someone's memory from whatever catalog or decades old auction they last came from), this will be a toughee

for anybody who actually CARES who and what the original recipients were but doesn't have the as yet unpublished wartime rolls.

Perhaps a CONSORTIUM can acquire the heedlessly tossed together not-worth-bothering-about "left over" ribbon bars melange and see to it properly that the specific items get to the buyers of the CORRECT medal bar groups these were so sloppily discarded from.

That top ribbon bar in the Lost Property Cluster is now niggling at me, and I think I can work back whose that was too. And where is the MEDAL bar?

At least through our mutual friend , with George's rolls that I now have at hand, I can RE-do the work that George already DID in now RE-identifying some of his medal bars.

[Guest Rick Research]

Crap. Colonial second row of ribbon bars belongs to a medal bar sold to Claudio falmost 2 years ago.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...ost&p=39378

Thies should GIVE that too you with apologies, Claudio!

It just never ends.

[Claudio]

What can I add to everything that has already said? Nothing... I am speachless. Long time ago I thought that people in this business (Militaria auctioneers and dealers) they were first also themselves very enthusiastic collectors and interested in military history. If they care about history, they shouldn't thinking in making just plain money, because at the end they are destroying an heritage that can't be put back together again.

It's really bad...

Now I have to spend a lot of money to reunite pieces... perhaps they (dealers & auctioneers) count on it, because they know that most of the collectors would spend a lot of money just to bring pieces together.

I noticed that there is no single dealer & auctioneer in this field (very likely also in other fields of collecting), who never have split groups, also all time favorites like Niemann (do you remember Admiral Lietzmann group??? http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...light=lietzmann ).

I really have to find the most appropriate bidding strategy for the upcoming auction Thies... either ways I am sure that I will spend a lot of money! It's really an addiction...

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited November 19, 2006 by Claudio

[Daniel Murphy]

Claudio,

Godspeed and good luck on your quest.

Dan

[saschaw]

Best luck to all who want to reunite anything ...

[Paul C]

deleted.

Edited November 19, 2006 by Paul C

[Ed_Haynes]

For the sake of those of us bidding on items can we please stop the discussion.

Fair enough, but isn't group reunification more important than blind acquisition?

Whether the auctioneer's hideous greed-driven misdeeds are a good enough excuse for bid collusion is a complex ethical question.

[Paul C]

deleted

Edited November 19, 2006 by Paul C

[Riley1965]

Best of wishes for all bidders who are trying to re-unite ODMs!!!

Doc

[Ed_Haynes]

Best of wishes for all bidders who are trying to re-unite ODMs!!!

Doc

And confusion to all those who try to split them up or keep them split!!!

Ed

[VtwinVince]

As my father used to say, "Greed and avarice will be the downfall of humanity". Having quoted him thus, I still wish others success in the noble pursuit of preserving history.

[landsknechte]

Well, yet again, the Lucky High Bidder can contact me here afterwards for the ID on this one. It's a tricky one because this is an "appearances can be deceiving" group to a VERY odd character indeed.

Rick, if you wouldn't mind, could you drop me a clue (whenever) as to what sort of person the recipient was? Still trying to develop a mental picture of what sort of folks would have ended up with the Dutch decoration on that bar.

-C