Soviet Sotheby's Cancels Auction of Russian Orders

[Stogieman]

I agree Ed, like the proliferation of Thallium into Great Britain

[Wild Card]

And I am not sure that ODM are the place to start. In any case, Tsar Putin and his minions will have more pressing matters to worry about, I suspect.

Let's hope so.

[Chris S]

Gentlemen,

I detect a common theme that we, as collectors, not only do not want stolen items (please pardon the double negative) in our collections, but would certainly refuse to buy such and would even aid in of seeing an end to such practices. Access to the description and serial numbers of stolen pieces would be beneficial in several ways.

It would give us a list of what to look for, thereby preventing the purchase such items. It would give us data to compare to our present collections, thereby offering us the opportunity to return stolen items. It would at least slow down the resale (and thereby theft) of such items; and it would prevent the possibility of the confiscation of items which in fact were not stolen - I would not want to have to go through the time and expense of fighting a legal battle with the Russian government over ? a bureaucratic error?, you know, ? an unfortunate misunderstanding?. This is a two way street - if it?s not listed, it?s not stolen.

Surely such a list exists or could be compiled and could be maintained by a third party or organization. Our forum? OMSA? The Russian Government? If they have the time and resources to pursue such cases, surely they could maintain such a database.

Just some thoughts.

Wild Card

Just been watching a Russian news programme and the medals in question were stolen from relatives...serial numbers matched etc...i.e Nikita Khrushchev Grandson had his medals and they were stolen and these were part of the medals for sale.

They even showed the guy who stole them...must have passed them on before that.

Without doubt if we have a fair sized collection I would imagine some are stolen for our needs.

I would imagine that the seller did not know they were stolen and if he did he will not have the last laugh. I am glad that they may now get back to relatives.

Chris

Edited November 25, 2006 by Chris S

[JimZ]

Chris clarify please ..... where those orders on auction some or all of Nikita Kruschev's ODM's???

Cough cough splutter!!!!!

Jim

[Chris S]

Chris clarify please ..... where those orders on auction some or all of Nikita Kruschev's ODM's???

Cough cough splutter!!!!!

Jim

Just been talking to my Russian other half she has clarified that they showed Nikita K Grandson who had his Grandfathers medals stolen from him and went on to say that medals like this were on sale in Southbys stolen from Museums and relatives.

NK's medals were not on sale but he has not got them back so some collector has them I bet.

Chris

Edited November 25, 2006 by Chris S

[rboomsma]

Just been talking to my Russian other half she has clarified that they showed Nikita K Grandson who had his Grandfathers medals stolen from him and went on to say that medals like this were on sale in Southbys stolen from Museums and relatives.

NK's medals were not on sale but he has not got them back so some collector has them I bet.

Chris

I guess the guy who put them up for auction was icredibley stupid and thought no one would notice or he simply had no idea they were stolen. Glad to see that the Russian Government was able to stop the auction and hopefully get them back to their rightful owners.

[JimZ]

OK Chris. Thanks for clarification. I think it would have been shocking had this been the case.... but well it may not have been the case this time but somone somewhere has Khruschevs ODMs and many others obtained through criminal activity. In principle I agree and echo what has been said before that we should not sanction any criminal activity and although demand is driving supply we should not, I repeat NOT encourage such demand in a manner that ODMs be obtained in any way whatsoever.

Jim

[Chris S]

I guess the guy who put them up for auction was icredibley stupid and thought no one would notice or he simply had no idea they were stolen. Glad to see that the Russian Government was able to stop the auction and hopefully get them back to their rightful owners.

They showed all the very top end medals at southbys with a Red Banner Screwback 3 as the minnow in the assortment.

Chris

[Ed_Haynes]

Not to suggest that this is the case here, or in similar cases, but I know of cases where medals turned up for sale (or in collections), the families cried "stolen", the medals were recovered and restored to the families (sometimes at considerable loss to the collector), and a few months later the same medals were up for sale again.

While there are surely thefts-to-order to acquire high-end material, sometimes with a little homicide thrown in for good measure, there are also other scenarios possible. And in today's new capitalist Russia, anything is possible.

[Chris Boonzaier]

90% of medals "souveniered" by the allies in 44-45 were stolen from the germans....

I want them returned... best place to send them is a small own in Bavaria, I will keep them here until the rightful owners claim them !!!!

[Chris S]

90% of medals "souveniered" by the allies in 44-45 were stolen from the germans....

I want them returned... best place to send them is a small own in Bavaria, I will keep them here until the rightful owners claim them !!!!

yeh like they did not steal anything...

Chris

[Wild Card]

Not to suggest that this is the case here, or in similar cases, but I know of cases where medals turned up for sale (or in collections), the families cried "stolen", the medals were recovered and restored to the families (sometimes at considerable loss to the collector), and a few months later the same medals were up for sale again.

While there are surely thefts-to-order to acquire high-end material, sometimes with a little homicide thrown in for good measure, there are also other scenarios possible. And in today's new capitalist Russia, anything is possible.

Thank you Ed. This is precisely what I was alluding to back in post #23 when I said ?...prevent the possibility of the confiscation of items which in fact were not stolen - I would not want to have to go through the time and expense of fighting a legal battle with the Russian government over ? a bureaucratic error?, you know, ? an unfortunate misunderstanding?. This is a two way street - if it?s not listed, it?s not stolen.?.

[JimZ]

90% of medals "souveniered" by the allies in 44-45 were stolen from the germans....

I want them returned... best place to send them is a small own in Bavaria, I will keep them here until the rightful owners claim them !!!!

Well Chris.... We appreciate your ver good intentions!!! But in all fairness, were Iron Crosses (just to mention one award with alll its various grades) serial numbered.

And herein lies the problem that allows specific orders to be traced. Mind you, most of us look at serial numbers a blessing, not only because you can place the approximate time of the award but through research you can find so much more that that! Its strange to think that collectors sometimes treasure and respect medals more than the legitimate heirs do! Like those 'heirs' who claim that medals were stolen to then resell them again.... How very sad..... If the awards are not dear to you sell them by all means. But do not use one man's awards to make an illegitimate profit.... Lying and cheating does not do honour to the awards which are the subject of such lies! It is a sad day when this happens!

Jim

[Chris Boonzaier]

Well Chris.... We appreciate your ver good intentions!!! But in all fairness, were Iron Crosses (just to mention one award with alll its various grades) serial numbered.

Jim

No, they were not... but therin lies the sneakyness of my plan... all crosses will be kept by me until the claiment can PROVE beyond ANY doubt, that the cross he is claiming actually WAS his....

Now excuse me... I think the postman is coming up the road....

[order_of_victory]

QUOTE(Ed_Haynes @ Nov 25 2006, 07:50 )

And I am not sure that ODM are the place to start. In any case, Tsar Putin and his minions will have more pressing matters to worry about, I suspect.

Let's hope so.

Well I think Putin and his minions are busy murdering ex KGB members in London at the mo

Order of Victory

[Christian Zulus]

3 Soviet (Republican) Orders left for tommorw's auction at Sotheby's

Gentlemen,

Sotheby's removed all Soviet Orders from the auction list except 3 Republican Orders:

- ORDER OF THE TOUVINIAN ARAT REPUBLIC, 1941-5

3,000?5,000 GBP

serial number 116, Type 2

- ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF LABOUR OF THE UZBEK SSR, 1930-1946

3,000?5,000 GBP

serial number 210, Type 2, the badge of silver and enamel, Leningrad, 875 standard, stamped with workmaster's initial S.B. in Cyrillic

- ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF LABOUR OF THE BYELORUSSIAN SSR

10,000?15,000 GBP

serial number 167, the badge of silver and enamel, Moscow, 84 standard, stamped with workmaster's initials VR in Cyrillic

Well, it seems, that Sotheby's only removed the orders issued by the Soviet Union, but not these, issued by the Soviet Republics .

The above noted estimated prices are in GBP and not in USD!

Best regards

Christian

Edited November 26, 2006 by Christian Zulus

[Guest Rick Research]

"Not to suggest that this is the case here, or in similar cases, but I know of cases where medals turned up for sale (or in collections), the families cried "stolen", the medals were recovered and restored to the families (sometimes at considerable loss to the collector), and a few months later the same medals were up for sale again.

While there are surely thefts-to-order to acquire high-end material, sometimes with a little homicide thrown in for good measure, there are also other scenarios possible. And in today's new capitalist Russia, anything is possible."

Ed's got an extremely valid point. As I read too many posts in this thread making the automatic assumption

If I Can't Ever Possibly Afford One, It Must Therefore Be Stolen

I would like to bring you all back in time 10 years, when the average awards of routine lower ranking generals et cetera were pricey, but had not defied gravity by going stratospheric.

MANY recipients or their next of kin in the very bad days after the collapse sold whatever they could for money to survive. That was certainly tragic, but of mutual benefit to

pay attention now

WILLING sellers and WILLING buyers.

The very thought that somebody "stole" a 1950s long service Red Star mini grouplet or so on, ten years ago, or 40 years of jubilee medals which are "worth" today what they were "worth" 10 years ago and will ALWAYS be "worth" (virtually nothing) is

silly.

Moreover, what we are seeing now with the Grand Investor Class is that "high ticket investment" items are simply constantly recycling those same all-they-care-about-is-resale items from collection to sale to collection to sale to collection to sale ...

and in very many cases all those items that

yes indeed

None Of Us Will Ever Be Able To Afford

ARE going back to the Russian Federation, purchased by persons with a whollllllllllllllle lot of money

which in my lifetime's experience does NOT equal an automatic presumption of Lofty Idealism And Selfless Nobility.

Personally, I am glad to have salvaged out of the flotsam and jetsam of totalitarianism these items which belonged to ordinary citizens-- no better or worse than any of us would have been in a similar system--

because I will certainly guard them better than some State Collection storage unit,

I will certainly "value" them better than indifferent and uncaring family members (and I have indeed heard from one such out of all my items),

and I will research and study these items with an appreciation of the HUMAN cost to their recipients

which has absolutely NOTHING to do with monetary "value."

A State which sent millions of its citizens to their doom, uncaring, and which itself is now a receding memory has no legitimate claim on a replacement government which OVERTHREW IT

unless said government chooses the distinctly dubious path of claiming to be a SUCCESSOR rather than a REPLACEMENT.

The Federal Republic of Germany does not assert "ownership" of personal decorations bestowed by the Hitler regime.

"National treasures" have been leaving the Hermitage etc by the truckload for years. I suggest anybody who honestly believes a Red Star is a "national treasure" needs to

get real.

I might also point out in a Reality Check moment, that if the specific items being sold-no-longer at Sotheby's are NOT, indeed stolen (if they were, they must be returned) thennnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Boils And Germs

Citizen Bureaucrat at the Ministry Of Thumbs In The Soup has just VERY likely PREVENTED the return of "national treasures" to the Homeland.

Because what is OUT cannot be brought back IN under the Oops "Unanticipated" Consequences Scenario of blanket bans.

Bureaucrats.

[Christian Zulus]

Auction results from Sotheby's for the rest of the awards from the SU

Gentlemen,

these are the results of the auction:

- ORDER OF THE TOUVINIAN ARAT REPUBLIC, 1941-5

Estimated price: 3,000?5,000 GBP

serial number 116, Type 2

Hammer price: 10,200 GBP = almost 20,000 USD

- ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF LABOUR OF THE UZBEK SSR, 1930-1946

Estimated price: 3,000?5,000 GBP

serial number 210, Type 2, the badge of silver and enamel, Leningrad, 875 standard, stamped with workmaster's initial S.B. in Cyrillic

Hammer price: 9,000 GBP = 17,000 USD

- ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF LABOUR OF THE BYELORUSSIAN SSR

10,000?15,000 GBP

serial number 167, the badge of silver and enamel, Moscow, 84 standard, stamped with workmaster's initials VR in Cyrillic

Hammer price: 45,600 GBP = almost 90,000 USD

Well, the hammer prices are high above the estimated results. Imagine what the rest of the Soviet lot whould have yielded .

But the real sensation was a simple Russian Order of St. Andrew 1cl (about 1840) - without breast star (!), only at the sash, but in the presentation box - with an estimated price of 25,000 - 35,000 GBP, which ended up with a hammer price of 299,200 GBP = almost 600,000 USD

Hard times for collectors of Russian & Soviet items .

Best regards

Christian

[Ed_Haynes]

Oh . . .

[DutchBoy]

I am stunned and speechless (and that doesn't happen very often!) HOLY CR*P!!

[Bryan]

Hard times for collectors of Russian & Soviet items

I'd say it's a good time for the sellers.

This stuff is out of price for the big majority of Soviet collectors on this forum. So I think it doesn't affect us so much.

[Stogieman]

I guess I'll just cross that one off my list.....

[NavyFCO]

This stuff is out of price for the big majority of Soviet collectors on this forum. So I think it doesn't affect us so much.

I'm not sweating the results of this auction too much as I don't think that the buyers of these awards are the same ones that are the buyers of the things that most of us can afford. The collectors of republican awards often don't cross into the "common" Soviet awards, and even rarer are the collectors of Imperial awards that cross into Soviet awards.

The results of this auction though shouldn't surprise anyone though. All of these awards are very rare and sought after, and I wouldn't be surprised if the new owner of the St Andrew is one of the new Russian billionaires (I know of at least one that is a serious collector of militaria) to whom money really isn't that much of a problem.

Luckily for us, this sort of person would be flooded if they ever started buying the groups that we can afford! Thus, I don't think this will do anything to change the overall prices of Soviet awards. Now, had the pulled awards been auctioned off, we might have seen a few records hit for prices with the same Russian billionaire(s) playing in the bidding pool, but to be honest I really doubt that they would have garnered much more than we see them for sale at the moment, unless someone got bit by the "auction bug" and just wanted to do everything possible to outbid the other buyer.

Just my opinion....

Dave