Looking for Reg. History of IR 71 and 67.

[Paul C]

I have a medalbar traced to Hauptmann Fritz Schubert 27.1.07 Major IR 71, 28.11.14 Char Oberstleutnant commaner of IR 67 during war 4.Magdeburgisches IR67 11.3.18 ? 4.2.19, died 9.11.32. Does anyone have a Reg. History for either IR 71 or 67? I would like to find a picture of Schubert.

[Paul C]

I relized that I never posted the back for pics.

[M Hunter]

A fantastic medal bar Paul.

I assume the the SEK3 was the key to this ID?

Best wishes

Matt

[Dave Danner]

I don't think this is Schubert's bar.

Schubert received Swords to the SEK3 on 27 October 1914. Even if you assume this was a pre-war bar that he never updated with his EK2 and any other awards, he was required by Schwarzburg-Sondershausen to return his peacetime award in exchange for the SEK3X. For what it's worth, Schubert was also later nominated for the SEK2X, but that was never approved.

I think a more likely candidate is:

Eberhard v. Kamecke

7.1.1865 in Graudenz.

Vater: Generalmajor z.D. Hermann v. Kamecke (7.6.1822-27.4.1900)

24.8.1884 in das IR 71 eingetreten

21.1.1885 Uffz.

14.4.1885 Port.-Fähnrich

11.2.1886 Sek.-Lt. (Y)

14.9.1893 Prem.-Lt. (H25h)

20.5.1897 z. Kgl. Württ. IR 120 kommandiert

22.5.1900 Hptm., vorl. ohne Patent

16.6.1900 erhielt Pat. als Hptm. (F2f)

15.9.1905 in das IR 116 versetzt

27.1.1911 ausgeschieden

Hptm. v. Kamecke had the RAO4, KO4 and SEK3 in the 1910 rank list, and should have received the DA around the time the rank list was published. He disappears after 1911. I can't find a death announcement in the Militär-Wochenblatt, but he appears to have died before the war. He was not recalled and doesn't show up in the Ehrenrangliste. He is also completely missing from the 1919 edition of Gotha. Gotha has an annoying habit of removing people from later editions if they die without issue, unless they were killed in action.

[Glenn J]

Dave,

Eberhard v. Kamecke died on 28 July 1913.

Regards

Glenn

[Chris Boonzaier]

100 yeyar aniversary coming up then.....

[Paul C]

Kamecke would have had the DA on the bar. So I have to disagree that it is him. That leaves only Schubert as the one to this bar.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Here is a question.... i can see this being a WW1 officers bar if the medals were simply "hang in" medals, where they could have been returned to his old bar at some stage for whatever reason.

But these are sewn in medals... and they are not cheap medals even at the time...

Usually an officer took an old bar and his medal to a tailor and said "do your thing" and the tailor made a new bar using the old awards.

Schubert served until the end of WW1, so veeeery likely he had time to get his WW1 medals mounted.... can we seriously believed he ordered a new set of medals each time he needed another medal mounted? Officers were not exactly rolling in cash... they would have needed to be a real medal fetichist to do that.

I think it may be easier to explain why Kamecke is missing a DA, as opposed to why Schubert would order a really expensive bunchof medals when he had them on an old prewar bar.

Realistically, with a bar of peacetime thingies... he probably hit the tailors at light speed when he got his nice sparkling EK2?

Best

Chris

[Dave Danner]

Paul,

I am not sure I am following you. There are five medals on the bar. Eberhard v. Kamecke was entitled to those five and no more. Why is he not a likely candidate?

Schubert, by contrast, was entitled to at least one more medal - the Iron Cross 2nd Class (he also received the EK1 on 19.3.15, but of course that's not relevant to the medal bar) - and was by regulation of the principality required to return his peacetime SEK3 in exchange for his SEK3X. He received the SEK3X on 27 October 1914, so its not like he didn't have time to return it. Furthermore, he survived the war by 14 years. Even if he didn't remount his peacetime medal bar during the war, as Chris suggests, he had plenty of opportunity after the war. There are guys who only got the Iron Cross during the war, who may have kept their pre-war medal bars and worn the EK2 from the buttonhole, but as noted Schubert had at least one award which he would have had to fix on the medal bar. And fourteen years to do it.

So, for it to be Schubert's bar, you have to make a series of assumptions - no mounting of the EK2, no mounting of the SEK3X, no returning of the SEK3, no other wartime awards for which we don't have rolls yet, no fixes at all to his medal bar for over 18 years. That seems to make him less likely than v. Kamecke. It's not 100% either way, but in my opinion it does not lean in Schubert's direction.

[redeagleorder]

Perhaps someone restored this bar and didn't use the exact decorations? My reason for thinking this is that the RAO and Crown Order seem to hang quite low.

Matthew

[Paul C]

Paul,

I am not sure I am following you. There are five medals on the bar. Eberhard v. Kamecke was entitled to those five and no more. Why is he not a likely candidate?

Schubert, by contrast, was entitled to at least one more medal - the Iron Cross 2nd Class (he also received the EK1 on 19.3.15, but of course that's not relevant to the medal bar) - and was by regulation of the principality required to return his peacetime SEK3 in exchange for his SEK3X. He received the SEK3X on 27 October 1914, so its not like he didn't have time to return it. Furthermore, he survived the war by 14 years. Even if he didn't remount his peacetime medal bar during the war, as Chris suggests, he had plenty of opportunity after the war. There are guys who only got the Iron Cross during the war, who may have kept their pre-war medal bars and worn the EK2 from the buttonhole, but as noted Schubert had at least one award which he would have had to fix on the medal bar. And fourteen years to do it.

So, for it to be Schubert's bar, you have to make a series of assumptions - no mounting of the EK2, no mounting of the SEK3X, no returning of the SEK3, no other wartime awards for which we don't have rolls yet, no fixes at all to his medal bar for over 18 years. That seems to make him less likely than v. Kamecke. It's not 100% either way, but in my opinion it does not lean in Schubert's direction.

Dave, I have been a little tired lately. You are right. The Kamecke is a perfect match for the bar. Schubert would have had 2 more awards. Thanks for sorting this out. Now I need to trace down a pic of Kamecke.

[webr55]

Good work, nice update.

[Deruelle]

Nice bar and nice work

Christophe