paja Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 Just for comparison, 4 slightly different IKOM screw nuts, large type, from my humble collection. -Brotherhood & Unity II -Merits for the People II -Merits for the People III -Partisan Commemorative Medal 1941 IMHO 100% authentic pieces.
paja Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 In order to make things more easier I put all 8 of them on one photo.
Eric Gaumann Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) > " but what about IKOM made orders? Were these being awarded at all? I ask because I don't remember seeing an awarded IKOM Partisan Stars, do you? " No, I don't. But, that's not my area of collecting with Yugo orders, specifically. > "Does anyone have, for example, an inherited awarded piece or a piece with a matching number on the awarding certificate?" No, sorry. > "I started collecting images of IKOM orders just recently so unfortunately I don't have a very large photo archive. Let's start with these two, look at the rifles, do they seem OK to you?" Yes. IMO these examples were altered during finishing. I think that during that process which might include filing and/or buffing the original profile of the rifles was altered. Unintentionally. We've all noticed the later Yugo awards were of lesser quality than the earlier awards in many cases and this rifle situation is indicative of that. Also, most obviously, the enamel work on the Ikom Partisan Stars is of much lesser quality. And I am about 95% sure that these high numbered stars were never issued. Maybe bought in bulk by some speculator/investor at some point in time with the hopes that Yugo award prices would skyrocket like their Soviet comrades. > "Double vision" back side. Photos are a bit blurry but it's not just that, take a look at the number and the Roman numeral." I think I have noticed at least one alternative font for the serial numerals. You example seems to have that as well as what I describe as lesser quality construction/finishing. Edited October 25, 2017 by Eric Gaumann spelling. added discussion.
paja Posted October 26, 2017 Posted October 26, 2017 (edited) It would be great to see an awarded piece for the comparison purposes, of course if they exist at all. I haven't been around that long but before "someone found a stash" how often could you see IKOM made Partisan Stars on the market? I presume not a lot if any and now the same thing is happening with the second class. "We've all noticed the later Yugo awards were of lesser quality than the earlier awards in many cases and this rifle situation is indicative of that." The problem is that these should be from the '40s-'50s. I believe after that period Yugoslavia stopped producing numbered orders with screws. Considering that they should be around 60-70 years old it's a bit unusual that most of them have that "factory look". And that's not the case only with that particular order, I've been seeing a lot of Brotherhood&Unity and Merits for the People orders like that, I don't like them one bit. As for the "double vision" example, it's not the font, factories did use different types, but how they look like. And what about those screw nuts? By the way you can see those "shinny" not very good looking screw nuts on some of the other orders I mentioned. Edited October 26, 2017 by paja
Eric Gaumann Posted October 27, 2017 Posted October 27, 2017 On 10/26/2017 at 07:47, paja said: It would be great to see an awarded piece for the comparison purposes, of course if they exist at all. I haven't been around that long but before "someone found a stash" how often could you see IKOM made Partisan Stars on the market? I presume not a lot if any and now the same thing is happening with the second class. I check a few other sites/forums and found NO Ikom pieces with award docs. Not a one, not even talk about seeing one somewhere else. I think very few, if any, Ikom pieces were awarded. Talk was that the Mondvor pieces were sent in batches to different locations and my guess is that as the stock became low at some locations plans were made to implement the Ikom production. But the war soon ended and a few of the Mondvor pieces and all the Ikom pieces still had not been awarded. At that point they went into storage either for re-issue for lost awards or, as some speculate, another conflict to arrise where these extra awards would be needed. On 10/26/2017 at 07:47, paja said: And what about those screw nuts? By the way you can see those "shinny" not very good looking screw nuts on some of the other orders I mentioned. Ugh, those screwplates are horrible. So rough and 'unfinished'. I should have one tested for silver content but I know what the answer will be.
BalkanCollector Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 I also haven't seen an awarded IKOM type Partisan Star. Here's the Soviet awarded PS 3rd class which was awarded in 1952 (group of photos from the internet, not from my collection). Too bad there wasn't a photo of the back side. If the Soviet types were still awarded in 1952 when did the IKOM start producing the Yugo type? As for the screw plates and quality of orders in general I've also noticed the significant drop of quality over time. The newer ones had that shiny look without that much of a detail.
Eric Gaumann Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 1 hour ago, BalkanCollector said: If the Soviet types were still awarded in 1952 when did the IKOM start producing the Yugo type? That is a good question! It's kinda funny, on one of the documents you showed they used an old (1948 series) document and didn't cross out the '4' in '194_' instead showing "19452". Maybe these are from the future? Also in the image I focus on there is an official stamp. Can any of you Cyrillic readers see a location mentioned? On the larger document I can make out Beograd(Belgrade). It might help us with storage locations although it's probably not related. Not to mention it's also seven years after the war ended; probably all the awards were in one location by that time.
BalkanCollector Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 Belgrade is mentioned because the chancellery of orders was located there. The stamp mentions the chancellery of orders but does not mention any location except for Yugoslavia. Also what does 1280202 - H 535 - 12-8-48 - 2000 mean?
paja Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) IKOM started producing decorations in 1945, ZIN as well, perhaps even earlier than IKOM. Even though you had "domestic" decorations, Soviet made ones were being issued even during the '50s. I remember someone inherited Soviet made Bravery Order awarded to his family member in 1951, also we recently spoke about Stevo Opsenica's People's Hero Order - Soviet type awarded in November 1953. So both types of orders, Soviet and Yugoslav, were being awarded at the same time. We all heard the "storage" stories, Bosnian finds, stash in case of Soviet invasion and similar, but how true are they? You never hear who, where, when, how much etc. That's really a convenient back up story, but I'm getting tired of it, whenever you see a flood on the market you can hear it. How realistic is that apparently large quantities of decorations are still being found in some warehouses in 2017? Looks like the Chancellery of Orders had a storage on every corner I'm thinking about opening a separate topic about "shinny" early IKOM decorations. This might sound like a silly question but did anyone do the silver test with these orders? Edited October 28, 2017 by paja
Eric Gaumann Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, BalkanCollector said: Also what does 1280202 - H 535 - 12-8-48 - 2000 mean? My guess is that they refer to the codes for the blank document. The '12-8-48' would be a date code (Aug.'48); when it replaced the previous one (at least that's my guess: the 48 refers to 1948.) The other numbers are maybe printer's codes or office codes or some such. Edit: Thanks for the translations!!! Edited October 28, 2017 by Eric Gaumann
Eric Gaumann Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 3 hours ago, paja said: We all heard the "storage" stories, Bosnian finds, stash in case of Soviet invasion and similar, but how true are they? You never hear who, where, when, how much etc. That's really a convenient back up story, but I'm getting tired of it, whenever you see a flood on the market you can hear it. How realistic is that apparently large quantities of decorations are still being found in some warehouses in 2017? You could be right. I mean 'like new' orders 60 years after the fact? But then again no one has identified these as reproductions. Yet. 3 hours ago, paja said: I'm thinking about opening a separate topic about "shinny" early IKOM decorations. That's a good idea. A fellow on the Italian Soviet forums has done similar with Soviet screwplates and has raised awareness. 3 hours ago, paja said: This might sound like a silly question but did anyone do the silver test with these orders? Not that I've seen. I think the hallmarks make everybody complacent. What should the content be, do you know? 900? 925? Should the post be silver as well? I can get this done, easily. I have a connection in the jewelry business. If they're open tomorrow I'll go then. If not, Monday. Anything else you want tested while I'm there? My current collection is modest: YUGOSLAVIA Orders: Military Merit 2c T1V1 Brotherhood & Unity 2c 6,657 T1V1 IKOM late 40s Hallmarked National Merit 3c 23,366 T1 IKOM late 40s Labor 3c T2 ZNB
Mister No Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 I tested the Partisan Star 1 class (soviet made). To my surprise was not gold. Just a good gild. I also know a man who bought 7,8 years ago a full bunch of silver Orders from IKOM. He sold them all. Stocks of Orders existed, because Yugoslavia suddenly skimmed down and not all of the Orders were distributed 27 minutes ago, Eric Gaumann said: What should the content be, do you know? 900? 925? Should the post be silver as well? IKOM made Orders from silver 800, 900, 950.
new world Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 15 hours ago, Mister No said: I tested the Partisan Star 1 class (soviet made). To my surprise was not gold. Just a good gild. ... Do you have photos of this non-gold 1st class?
paja Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 On 10/28/2017 at 22:25, Eric Gaumann said: You could be right. I mean 'like new' orders 60 years after the fact? But then again no one has identified these as reproductions. Yet. Not that I've seen. I think the hallmarks make everybody complacent. What should the content be, do you know? 900? 925? Should the post be silver as well? I can get this done, easily. I have a connection in the jewelry business. If they're open tomorrow I'll go then. If not, Monday. Anything else you want tested while I'm there? My current collection is modest: YUGOSLAVIA Orders: Military Merit 2c T1V1 Brotherhood & Unity 2c 6,657 T1V1 IKOM late 40s Hallmarked National Merit 3c 23,366 T1 IKOM late 40s Labor 3c T2 ZNB Apologies for not replying sooner. Mister No already wrote about the silver content, small silver hallmarks looked like this: Rooster in square - .950 Rooster in pentagon - .900 Rooster in hexagon - .800 They were introduced in 1933 and Serbia still uses very similar pattern today. I've been looking at the back sides of these IKOM made Partisan Stars, I think they all have "pentagon" hallmark, silver purity .900. That's a nice selection of Yugoslav decorations, everything looks OK to me. Orders have a nice, natural looking patina, definitely not "shinny" examples. Those suspiciously new looking orders have higher numbers. Did you perhaps manage to test the Partisan Star during the weekend?
gerd vantyghem Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 Hi, Let's suppose most of the 3rd class IKOM stars would be recent fakes... Then, shouldn't we rather expect the 'silver hallmarks' be part of the mold, and be identically positioned the same on every copy? It would be a lot faster and easier, and wouldn't require these to be done manually at the end of the production process? Unless they would remake them the very same way as the 'originals', being literally 'later productions'? Kind regards, Gerd V
paja Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) Yes, that would be much easier but at the same time it would raise some suspicion. Apart from that we have to factor in the numbers as well, they have to be manually imprinted. Edited October 30, 2017 by paja
paja Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 On 10/28/2017 at 22:40, Mister No said: I tested the Partisan Star 1 class (soviet made). To my surprise was not gold. Just a good gild. I know Yugoslav made Partisan stars were gilded but I don't remember hearing that about the Soviet orders. Is it in any other way different than the examples made out of gold? Do you know what's underneath the gilt? Silver? If it's not too much to ask could you possibly post couple of photos of that particular order? On 10/28/2017 at 22:40, Mister No said: I also know a man who bought 7,8 years ago a full bunch of silver Orders from IKOM. He sold them all. Did I understand you well, this man bought a bunch of orders directly from the IKOM factory around 2010?
Eric Gaumann Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 3 hours ago, paja said: Did you perhaps manage to test the Partisan Star during the weekend? Getting ready to go there right now. Will check in with results later today.
Eric Gaumann Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 2 hours ago, paja said: Thanks, looking forward to hearing the results. So, I just got back. The good news is they can use some sort of new-fangled electronic device to test for not only content but purity and what other metals are in the alloy. Using a machine described to me as something like this: https://www.thermofisher.com/order/catalog/product/XL2PRECIOUS It does no harm whatsoever and the results are almost instantaneous. The bad news is it's gonna be about three weeks before they'll have access to the machine. So now we wait. I requested that the star itself, the screw-post *and* the screw plate be tested so in three weeks we'll know a lot more specifics than we do now. I also took my 20 Year Anniversary of the (Soviet) Red Army medal to be tested as well. I've been told that it's probably a fake but if it turns out to have the correct composition of silver alloy then it might end up being real. Three weeks isn't that long, right???
Mister No Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, paja said: I know Yugoslav made Partisan stars were gilded but I don't remember hearing that about the Soviet orders. Is it in any other way different than the examples made out of gold? Do you know what's underneath the gilt? Silver? If it's not too much to ask could you possibly post couple of photos of that particular order? I did not test it for silver only for gold. And after that, it was enough to me. It's no longer with me, I only have photos. Edited October 30, 2017 by Mister No
Mister No Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 9 hours ago, paja said: Did I understand you well, this man bought a bunch of orders directly from the IKOM factory around 2010? He did not buy it directly in IKOM, but from a man working in IKOM. Full bucket. Order of merit for the people of the second and third class. Order partisan stars of the third class. Brand new packed in nylon bags with ribbon.
Eric Gaumann Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Mister No said: Brand new packed in nylon bags with ribbon. Polished at that point and then vacuum sealed? That might explain things. Or, that's how copies entered the mint. I'm starting to think we should start a new thread about "shinny", recently found Yugoslavian awards as this discussion is now more than just my 'new' PS3.
Mister No Posted October 31, 2017 Posted October 31, 2017 8 hours ago, Eric Gaumann said: Polished at that point and then vacuum sealed? Like "brand new". I do not think they're new minted, they're from a warehouse. Only silver orders with hallmarks.
paja Posted October 31, 2017 Posted October 31, 2017 16 hours ago, Eric Gaumann said: So, I just got back. The good news is they can use some sort of new-fangled electronic device to test for not only content but purity and what other metals are in the alloy. Using a machine described to me as something like this: https://www.thermofisher.com/order/catalog/product/XL2PRECIOUS It does no harm whatsoever and the results are almost instantaneous. The bad news is it's gonna be about three weeks before they'll have access to the machine. So now we wait. I requested that the star itself, the screw-post *and* the screw plate be tested so in three weeks we'll know a lot more specifics than we do now. I also took my 20 Year Anniversary of the (Soviet) Red Army medal to be tested as well. I've been told that it's probably a fake but if it turns out to have the correct composition of silver alloy then it might end up being real. Three weeks isn't that long, right??? Three weeks sound perfect to me That sounds like a really serious device, nothing us common mortals can get our hands on. Out of curiosity I checked how much are they going for, seeing all those $$$ made me feel dizzy Anyway, many thanks for doing this, we should get some answers.
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