Order of St Michael

[Chris Liontas]

Hello all, I picked this up from German ebay on a hunch (bad photo). It looks like an order of St Michael on this guys chest. I have seen these for sale in Thies' auction as well as Kube's. Can anyone tell me what they were awarded for? Unfortunately there is no name on the photo

[Chris Liontas]

Close up

[David M]

Close up

Does the back of the photo give a year? Because I am guessing this to be one of the bishops of M?nchen and Freising

David M

[Wild Card]

Hi Chris Liontas,

Yes, the decoration on the right (as viewed) is either a third class or fourth class, with crown, St. Michael; and the other is knight?s cross to the Merit Order of the Bavarian Crown.

I hope that this information is helpful,

Wild Card

Edited February 19, 2007 by Wild Card

[saschaw]

David M said:

Does the back of the photo give a year? Because I am guessing this to be one of the bishops of München and Freising

The front does! It reads "1901" in the left down corner ...

Edited May 21, 2023 by saschaw

[webr55]

This is most certainly not the "acting" archbishop of München and Freising. He would have had higher decorations, such as a Bavarian Crown Order commander. Probably this is some ecclesiastical official.

Edited March 5, 2023 by webr55

[W McSwiggan]

I hope this is correct and does not add to the confusion. Werlich indicates that the order of St. George was a near equivalent to the order of St. Hubert. "For outstanding services to the state by Roman Catholics (of noble birth). To me this picture implies one of two things - the subject is not a big wig or not noble. I do not know if Werlick is considered a reliable source on matters Imperial and I do not know if the "noble birth" clause was ever mitigated by high office such as the See of Munich. St. Michael was significantly lower in the pecking order than either of the two orders I've mentioned and the Bavarian Crown as well I think.

Edited February 20, 2007 by W McSwiggan

[Jacky]

Well the problem might be that catholic officials were sometimes considered de juro nobilities.

The pope is to be considered an Emperor

Cardinals are considered de juro Princes of the holy roman See

Bishops are considered de juro Counts of the holy roman See, as are the male familymembers of the pope (Uncles and cousins, as he, the pope himself has to abstain from sexual activities.)

But this man surely isn't really a high clergyman.

Thus clergyman can be considered of de juro nobility.

Kind regards,

Jacky

Edited February 19, 2007 by Jacky

[Guest Rick Research]

I suspect he is a Monsignor. The buttons, sash, and cape indicate his "rank," but whether red or purple can't be told from a B&W photo, and his hat's danglies (if there were any) are underneath. Afraid my personal knowledge of Catholic clerical attire does not go back quite THAT far.

The Bavarian Civil Merit Order-Knight is quite a big deal, since it would have made him a CIVIL "Ritter von" if he was not already a member of the hereditary nobility. But that grade of the general civil merit St Michael suggests to me too that he was not a Bishop.

I'd look to the city where the photographer was. He appears to be a "homebody" rather than a member of the Vatican administrative/diplomatic corps because he has no other awards.

BTW, he looks EXACTLY like the late American actor Charles Durning.

[Chris Liontas]

Hi all! thank you for the information. I was guessing he was a higher level in the Catholic church due to his dressing as Rick pointed out.

How did one qualify for the Orders he was given? Were they purely time driven for position or where they for specific merit? Are they common? Thanks again!

[Guest Rick Research]

I hope that one of our Bavarian friends can identify this cleric for you.

I don't have numbers for the Bavarian Order of the Crown, but since it gave personal nobility to commoners, it was a very big thing indeed. There are some very nice color photos of SEVERAL Andreas posted a while back--

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=14844

[Dave Danner]

I hope that one of our Bavarian friends can identify this cleric for you.

I don't have numbers for the Bavarian Order of the Crown, but since it gave personal nobility to commoners, it was a very big thing indeed. There are some very nice color photos of SEVERAL Andreas posted a while back--

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=14844

Go here for nicer photos and information: http://www.medalnet.net/Bayerische_Krone.htm

Some other pics and info here: http://home.att.net/~david.danner/militaria/bavaria3.htm

Jacob and Oscar Leser's Die Ritter- und Verdienstorden, Ehren- und Verdienst-Zeichen, Denk- und Dienstalters-Zeichen in Bayern, published in 1910, gives a total for 1909 of 126 Commanders (Komtur) and Grand Commanders (Gro?komtur), of which 49 were non-Bavarians, and 380 Knights (Ordensritter), of which 51 were non-Bavarian. This is secondhand - I don't have the Lesers' book, but Michael Autengruber cited these numbers in the item descriptions for the two badges auctioned by UBS a few weeks ago. Thus I don't have any numbers for the Grand Cross or breakdown between Commanders and Grand Commanders, nor any idea how many members of the order from earlier periods weren't around in 1909, or how many were subsequently awarded.

In the 1914 Milit?r-Handbuch des K?nigreichs Bayern, 133 members of the order are listed, broken down as follows:

Grand Cross (Gro?kreuz) - 11

Grand Commander's Cross (Gro?komturkreuz) - 10

Commander's Cross (Komturkreuz) - 22

Knight's Cross (Ritterkreuz) - 90

These are a mix. About a third of them are active senior officers and officials of the army, including officers ? la suite and the king's adjutants; a third or so are retired but recallable officers, and third are officers and officials removed from the Beurlaubtenstand. Many of those, in the latter group especially, were people whose primary accomplishments were in the civilian sphere, and who are listed only because they had held reserve or Landwehr commissions, such as Gustav Ritter von Kahr, a Staatsrat and after WW1 Ministerpr?sident of Bavaria.

I can post the whole list, if anyone's interested.

[Jacky]

Well,

if you please to do so..

Always interesting to see lists!!!

Need I say more,

well then; come on come on...

[Dave Danner]

Well,

if you please to do so..

Always interesting to see lists!!!

Need I say more,

well then; come on come on...

Ok...

Grand Cross (Gro?kreuz):

• Gen.d.Art. z.D. Peter Freiherr von Wiedenmann - General-Adjutant des K?nigs, Pr?sident des Geheimen Rates des Prinzregenten
• Gen.d.Inf. z.D. Luitpold Freiherr von und zu der Tann-Rathsamhausen - ? la suite to the 2nd and 11th Bavarian Infantry Regiments; recalled during the war as deputy commanding general, I. (bay.) Armee-Korps
• Gen.d.Kav. Otto Freiherr Kress von Kressenstein - Bavarian War Minister
• Gen.Oberst Karl Graf von Horn - General-Adjutant des K?nigs; Bavarian War Minister, 1905-12
• Genlt. Karl Graf Wolffsteel von Reichenberg - Offizier ? la suite der Armee; Kgl. Oberststallmeister a.D. (i.e., former Chief Royal Equerry)
• Genlt. Albrecht Graf von Seinsheim - Offizier ? la suite der Armee; Kgl. Obersthofmeister (Chief Royal Steward)
• Oberst Karl Graf von Giech - Offizier ? la suite der Armee; Reichsrat; died May 1914
• Oberst Bertram F?rst von Quadt zu Wykradt und Isny - Offizier ? la suite der Armee; Reichsrat
• Oberstlt. Hans Graf zu Toerring-Jettenbach - Offizier ? la suite der Armee; Reichsrat
• Oberstlt. Friedrich F?rst zu Castell-Castell - Offizier ? la suite der Armee; Reichsrat
• Oberstlt. Johannes F?rst zu Hohenlohe-Bartenstein und Jagstberg - Offizier ? la suite der Armee; Reichsrat

Grand Commander (Gro?komtur):

• Gen.d.Inf. Oskar Ritter von Xylander - commanding general, I. (bay.) Armee-Korps
• Gen.d.Kav. Ludwig Freiherr von Gebsattel - commanding general, III. (bay.) Armee-Korps
• Generalarzt Dr. Ottmar Ritter von Angerer - Offizier ? la suite des Sanit?ts-Korps
• Oberst Heinrich Freiherr Tucher von Simmelsdorf - Offizier ? la suite der Armee; Staatsrat; Diplomat
• char. Gen.d.Inf. z.D. Friedrich Ritter von Windisch
• char. Gen.d.Art. z.D. Friedrich Ritter von Lobenhoffer - recalled during the war as stellv. Feldzeugmeister; d. 1918
• Genlt. z.D. Ludwig Ritter von Reinhard
• char. Genlt. z.D. Ludwig Ritter von Winneberger - President of the Bayerischer Soldatenbund, 1904-1919
• Hptm. a.D. Ferdinand Freiherr von Miller - Director of the Akademie der Bildenden K?nste (Academy of Fine Arts) in Munich (1900-18)
• Major d.L. Heinrich Ritter von Thelemann - Staatsminister der Justiz, 1912-18

Commander (Komtur):

• Gen.d.Inf. Karl Ritter von Martini - commanding general, II. (bay.) Armee-Korps
• Generalstabarzt Dr. Karl Ritter von Sendel - Abteilungs-Chef, Medizinal-Abteilung
• Genlt. Wilhelm Walther von Walderst?tten - Vortragender General-Adjutant des K?nigs
• Genlt. Otto Ritter von Breitkopf - commander, 3. (bay.) Division
• Genlt. Maximilian Ritter von H?hn - commander, 6. (bay.) Division
• Genlt. Otto von Stetten - Inspekteur der Kavallerie
• Oberst Ludwig Freiherr von W?rtzburg - Offizier ? la suite der Armee; Reichsrat
• Oberstlt. Wilhelm Freiherr von Leonrod - Offizier ? la suite der Armee; Kgl. Oberststallmeister (Chief Royal Equerry)
• Oberstlt. Ernst Graf von Moy - Offizier ? la suite der Armee; Reichsrat
• char. Gen.d.Art. z.D. Maximilian Ritter von Gerstner
• char. Gen.d.Inf. z.D. Karl Ritter von Claus
• char. Gen.d.Inf. z.D. Oskar Ritter von Rittmann
• char. Gen.d.Kav. z.D. Maximilian Freiherr von Speidel - recalled to command 6. bay. Reserve-Division
• char. Gen.d.Inf. z.D. Karl Ritter von Fasbender
• char. Genlt. z.D. Gustav Scanzoni von Lichtenfels - took command of 6. bay. Reserve-Division at the end of 1914
• Oberstlt. a.D. Maximilian Freiherr von Hofenfels
• Major a.D. August von Parseval - airship designer
• Major d.R. Rudolf Freiherr von und zu der Tann-Rathsamhausen - Staatsrat; diplomat
• Hptm. d.L. Sigmund Ritter und Edler von L??l - Staatsrat
• char. Hptm. d.L. Otto Freiherr von Ritter zu Gr?nstein - diplomat; Bavarian envoy to the Vatican
• char. Oberlt. d.L. Anton Freiherr von Hirschberg - Staatsrat
• Lt. d.L. Karl Ritter von H?chstetter

[Dave Danner]

Knight (Ritter):

• Dr. Gottlob Ritter von Weigel - Senats-Pr?sident des Bayerischer Senat beim Reichsmilit?rgericht
• Gen.d.Inf. Karl Ritter von Brug ? chief of the Ingenieur-Korps
• Gen.d.Inf. z.D. Hermann Ritter von Haag - General-Adjutant des K?nigs
• Generalarzt Dr. Alfred Ritter von Halm ? Offizier ? la suite des Sanit?ts-Korps
• Genlt. Albert Ritter von Schoch - commander, 1. (bay.) Division
• Genlt. Ludwig Ritter von Hetzel - commander, 2. (bay.) Division
• Genlt. Maximilian Graf von Monteglas - commander, 4. (bay.) Division
• Genlt. Gustav Ritter von Schoch - commander, 5. (bay.) Division
• Genlt. Robert Ritter von Fischer - commandant, Festung Germersheim
• Genlt. Ludwig Ritter von Seither ? Feldzeugmeister
• Genmaj. Paul Ritter von Kneu?l - Abteilungs-Chef, Abteilung f?r Pers?nliche Angelegenheiten, Bavarian War Ministry
• Genmaj. Karl Ritter von Wenninger - Milit?r-Bevollm?chtigter in Berlin und stellv. Bevollm?chtigter zum Bundesrat des Deutschen Reiches
• Genmaj. Bernhard von Hartz ? on the Gro?er Generalstab in Berlin
• Genmaj. Konrad Krafft von Dellmensingen ? Chef des Generalstabs der Armee
• Genmaj. Hans Freiherr von La?berg ? Offizier ? la suite der Armee; Kgl. Oberstk?mmerer
• Genmaj. Nikolaus Ritter von Endres - commander, 2. Infanterie-Brigade
• Genmaj. Hermann Freiherr von Stein - commander, 1. Feldartillerie-Brigade
• Genmaj. Otto Ritter von Gy?ling - commander, 6. Feldartillerie-Brigade
• Oberst Hartmann Freiherr von Ow auf Wachendorf - Hofmarschall (Lord Chamberlain) and personal adjutant of Prinz Ludwig Ferdinand von Bayern
• Oberst Emanuel Freiherr von Perfall - Hofmarschall (Lord Chamberlain) and personal adjutant of Prinz Leopold von Bayern
• Oberst August Freiherr von M?ller ? Offizier ? la suite der Armee; Kgl. Pagenhofmeister a.D.
• Oberst Maximilian Graf von Moy - Offizier ? la suite der Armee; Kgl. Oberst-Zeremonienmeister
• Rittm. Joseph Graf von Monteglas - Offizier ? la suite der Armee; Reichsrat
• Wirkl.Geh. Oberbaurat Ludwig Ritter von Mellinger ? chairman, V.Sektion (Bauwesen), Milit?r-Verwaltungs-Abteilung, Bavarian War Ministry
• Wirkl.Geh. Oberkriegsrat Maximilian Ritter von Hellmuth - chairman, II.Sektion (Naturalverpflegungs-Angelegenheiten, Remontedepot-Verwaltung, Milit?r-Fonds), Milit?r-Verwaltungs-Abteilung, Bavarian War Ministry
• Wirkl.Geh. Oberkriegsrat Anton Ritter von Nischler - Abteilungs-Chef, Abteilung f?r Rechtsangelegenheiten, Bavarian War Ministry
• Rittm. Lothar Freiherr von Ritter zu Gr?nstein
• Major Bertold Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg ? Reichsrat; commanded 1. schweres Reiter-Regiment in 1917
• char. Gen.d.Inf. z.D. Wilhelm von Staudt ? Chef des Generalstabs der Armee, 1888-93, d. 1917
• char. Gen.d.Kav. z.D. Karl Freiherr von Freyberg
• char. Gen.d.Inf. z.D. Ernst Freiherr von Barth zu Harmating
• char. Gen.d.Inf. z.D. Friedrich Ritter von Pflaum
• char. Gen.d.Art. z.D. Eugen von Malais?
• char. Gen.d.Art. z.D. Theodor von Bomhard
• char. Gen.d.Kav. z.D. Otto Ritter von Schmidt
• char. Gen.d.Kav. z.D. Rudolf Ritter von Frommel
• char. Gen.d.Inf. z.D. Eugen Ritter von Benzino
• Genlt. z.D. Eugen Ritter von Keller
• Genlt. z.D. Karl Ritter von Landmann
• Genlt. z.D. Karl Ritter von K?ppel
• Genlt. z.D. Martin Ritter von Denk
• char. Genlt. z.D. Ludwig Ritter von M?ller
• char. Genlt. z.D. Julius Graf von Zech auf Neuhofen - Governor of Togo 1905-10
• char. Genlt. z.D. Richard von H??lin
• Genmaj. z.D. Johann Ritter von B?ck
• Genmaj. z.D. Karl Ritter von Schumacher
• Genmaj. z.D. Friedrich Ritter von Wolff
• Genmaj. z.D. Eduard Ritter von Graf
• Genmaj. z.D. Maximilian Ritter von Reschreiter
• Genmaj. z.D. Anton Ritter von Bucher
• char. Genmaj. z.D. Ferdinand Ritter von Kurz
• char. Genmaj. z.D. Richard Ritter von Hoffmann
• char. Genmaj. z.D. Karl Ritter von Horadam
• char. Genmaj. z.D. Heinrich Ritter von Henigst
• char. Genmaj. z.D. Franz Ritter von Beckenbauer
• Oberst a.D. Johann Freiherr von Hertling
• Oberstlt. a.D. Ralf Freiherr von Kreu?er
• Major a.D. Rudolf Freiherr von Guttenberg
• Major d.L. Anton Freiherr von Aretin
• Major d.R. Hans Freiherr von Th?ngen ? Reichsrat; co-founder of the Deutsche Landwirtschaftsgesellschaft
• Major d.L. Friedrich Ritter von Brettreich ? Staatsrat; Regierungspr?sident of Lower Franconia 1905-07; Staatsminister des Innern 1907-12
• Major d.R. Friedrich von Sigriz
• Major d.L. Hermann Ritter von Pfaff - Staatsrat; Staatsminister der Finanzen 1904-12
• Hptm. d.L. Karl Ritter von Braun
• Hptm. d.L. Karl Ritter von Welcker
• Rittm. d.L. Hugo Ritter von Forster
• Hptm. d.R. Maximilian Ritter von Hellmuth
• Hptm. d.L. Alfons Ritter von Bruckmann
• Hptm. d.L. Walter Ritter von Dyck
• Hptm. d.L. Gustav Ritter von Kahr - Staatsrat
• Hptm. d.L. Julius Ritter von Henle
• Hptm. d.L. Julius Freiherr von der Heydte
• Hptm. d.R. Wilhelm Ritter von Meinel
• Hptm. d.L. Otto Ritter von Str??enreuther ? Staatsrat; Regierungspr?sident of Lower Franconia 1916-33
• char. Hptm. d.L. Daniel Ritter von Conrad
• char. Hptm. d.L. Heinrich Ritter von Lenz - Wirkl.Geh. Kriegsrat
• char. Rittm. d.L. Georg Freiherr von und zu Guttenberg - diplomat
• Oberlt. d.L. Heinrich Ritter von Endres - Staatsrat
• Oberlt. d.L. Ferdinand Ritter von Keller
• Oberlt. d.L. Wilhelm Ritter von Camerer
• Lt. d.R. Adolf Ritter von Ziegler
• Lt. d.L. Karl Ritter von Rasp
• Rudolf Ritter von Richter - Senats-Pr?sident des Bayerischer Senat beim Reichsmilit?rgericht
• Friedrich Ritter von Habel - Senats-Pr?sident des Bayerischer Senat beim Reichsmilit?rgericht
• Wirkl.Geh. Oberkriegsrat Franz Ritter von Schultze
• Wirkl.Geh. Oberkriegsrat Ferdinand Ritter von Hei?
• Wirkl.Geh. Kriegsrat Joseph Ritter von Schropp
• Wirkl.Geh. Kriegsrat Ludwig Ritter von Braun
• Intendantur-Rat Maximilian Ritter von Schmid
• Intendantur-Rat Georg Ritter von Micheler

[Dave Danner]

A few of these received the Milit?r-Max-Joseph-Orden in World War I:

Grand Cross

Konrad Krafft von Dellmensingen

Karl Ritter von Fasbender

Commander

Nikolaus Ritter von Endres

Ludwig Freiherr von Gebsattel

Paul Ritter von Kneu?l

Hermann Freiherr von Stein

Otto von Stetten

Knight

Maximilian Ritter von H?hn

Albert Ritter von Schoch

Karl Ritter von Wenninger

Oskar Ritter von Xylander

[webr55]

Thanks, very good to have this list here!

For some reason, the Militär-Handbuch Bayern stopped listing the Non-Bavarians in 1911. So the last Non-Bavarians wearers listed are those who got the order in 1909.

Chris

Edited November 13, 2017 by webr55

[Dave Danner]

A few non-Bavarian recipients of the Merit Order of the Bavarian Crown:

Grand Cross:

Gen.d.Inf. Moritz Freiherr von Lyncker - Vortragender Generaladjutant Seiner Majest?t des Kaisers und K?nigs

Gen.Oberst (m.d.R. als GFM) Hans von Plessen - Diensttuender Generaladjutant Seiner Majest?t des Kaisers und K?nigs und Kdt. des Hauptquartiers

Gen.Oberst Helmuth von Moltke - Chef.d.Gen.St. der Armee

char. Gen.d.Inf. August Ludwig Traugott Botho Graf zu Eulenburg - ? la suite der Armee

char. Genlt. Ernst Otto Karl Ludwig Freiherr von Mirbach - ? la suite der Armee

char. Genlt. Theobald Theodor Friedrich von Bethmann Hollweg - ? la suite der Armee; Reichskanzler 1909-17

char. Genmaj. Bernhard Heinrich Martin Karl F?rst von B?low - ? la suite der Armee; Reichskanzler 1900-09

char. Genmaj. Christian Kraft F?rst zu Hohenlohe-Oehringen, Herzog von Ujest - ? la suite der Armee

char. Maj. Philipp Ernst F?rst zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsf?rst - ? la suite der Armee

char. Maj. Ernst F?rst von L?wenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg - ? la suite der Armee

Gen.d.Kav. Karl von Einem - Kriegsminister 1903-09; Kom.Gen., VII.A.K. 1909-1914; 2.Armee 1914-18; HGr Kronprinz, 1918

Gen.d.Inf. Leopold Ritter Hentschel von Gilgenheimb - ? la suite IR 13

GFM Gottlieb Ferdinand Albert Graf von Haeseler - Chef, Ulanen Regiment Graf Haeseler (2. Brandenburgisches) Nr. 11

K.W. Gen.d.Inf. Hermann Freiherr von Bilfinger - Generaladjutant Seiner Majest?t des K?nigs von W?rttemberg

K.W. Gen.d.Inf. Otto von Marchtaler - Kriegsminister des K?nigreichs W?rttemberg

K.W. Gen.d.Inf. Max Freiherr Schott von Schottenstein - ? la suite GR 119; Ministerpr?sident des Kgr. W?rttemberg 1900-01; d.1917

K.S. Gen.Oberst Max Clemens Lothar Freiherr von Hausen - Vorsitzende des Gesamtministeriums des K?nigreichs Sachsen 1912-14; Kriegsminister des K?nigreichs Sachsen 1902-14; Kom.Gen., XII.A.K.; Kom.Gen., 3.Armee 1914

Grand Commander:

char. Gen.d.Inf. Heinrich Freiherr von und zu Egloffstein - ? la suite der Armee

char. Gen.d.Inf. Max Freiherr von Lyncker - ? la suite der Armee

Gen.Oberst Friedrich von Scholl - Kdr., Leibgendarmerie

Maj.d.L. ____ Graf von P?ckler - Garde-Landwehr-Kavallerie

Commander:

Hptm. d.L. ____ Graf von Bernstorff - Garde-Landwehr des 1. Garde-FAR

Maj.d.L. ____ Graf von Hutten-Czapski - Landwehrbezirk V Berlin

char. K.W. Genlt. ____ Freiherr von Reischach - General ? la suite Seiner Majest?t des K?nigs von W?rttemberg

Knight:

Oberst z.D. ____ Blassmann - Kdr., Landwehrbezirk II Leipzig

"K.W." is "K?niglich W?rttembergischer"; "K.S." is "K?niglich S?chsischer".

[webr55]

According to the Hof- und Staatshandbuch Bayern 1902, this can only be

Dr. Balthasar Ritter von Daller (1835-1911)

He was the director of the Lyzeum (Lycealrektor) in Freising, which can be compared to a college. Daller was also papal domestic prelate, "erzbischöflicher geistlicher Rat" and a Bavarian politician. He got the St. Michael 4th cl in 1899 and the Bavarian Crown Order (which made him Ritter von) in 1901, so the pic was probably taken on that occasion.

Daller got his Dr. in theology from the University of Munich (LMU) in 1861.

Edited March 6, 2023 by webr55

[ccj]

What grade was Otto Graf zu Castell-Castell awarded?