Bavarian bar

[dond]

I'd like to hear some opinions on this bar please. Nothing glows under black light.

thanks

[dond]

the reverse.

thanks again.

[Ulsterman]

Well, #1 is the issue here huh?

I don't know about fakes/copies of this medal, but it looks "fat" to me. But hey, I am not the expert here. How big is it and what does it weigh? Magnetic?

[Bernd D]

The Tapferkeitsmedaille, medal of bravory, is not an awarded one it is one made for the medal bar. A duplicate or how it is called a "Spangenpr?gung".

[stevo4361]

Hey Don,

Any markings on the MVK 3 w/S?

Kind Regards,

Steve

[Claudio]

I would like to show as comparison my bar with an official Tapferkeitsmedaille. Although the ribbons the look brand new, they are original (I tested them with UV-light).

What I don't like to much on your bar is the stitching on the back. Bavarian bars are easier to fake, since their construction is simplier than other German states' bars. Furthermore many Bavarian and non-Bavarian enlisted and NCO did put together their own bars at home to save money, instead of going to a Medal or Military Uniform dealer.

Ciao,

Claudio

[dond]

Thanks for the replies. The wear on the ribbons is consistant across the bar. Nothing glows under UV. My main concern is the Bavarian Tapferkeits medal. I'll take it off and scan it seperately tonight.

Edited February 28, 2007 by dond

[militaria0815]

Thanks for the replies. The wear on the ribbons is consistant across the bar. Nothing glows under UV. My main concern is the Bavarian Tapferkeits medal. I'll take it off and scan it seperately tonight.

The bravery medal is doubtless a 100% copy. The medal bar is ok.

[Riley1965]

Please excuse my ignorance, as I'm just starting to learn the Imperial medals, but What makes the Bravery Medal a fake?

Doc

[militaria0815]

Please excuse my ignorance, as I'm just starting to learn the Imperial medals, but What makes the Bravery Medal a fake?

Doc

Originals of this type have to have a very thick suspension ring and the name of the medal maker (artist) J.RIES on the frontside. Please see enclosed pic of an original medal.

[Riley1965]

Thank You for the explanation!!! This is a new area of study that bit me. I'm in the learning phase so I don't go down the wrong road.

Doc

[Bernd D]

Please excuse my ignorance, as I'm just starting to learn the Imperial medals, but What makes the Bravery Medal a fake?

Doc

It is not realy a fake more a duplicate. At that time people bought additional Bravery Medals to wear them on the medal bar. They were made out of different materials mostly silver gilt or in silver, too. You find the same for the golden once.

[landsknechte]

I'm far from being an expert in medal bar construction, but the hooks look like they were hand snipped out of sheet brass.

[Guest Rick Research]

Nothing wrong with brass "popsicle sticks" on this style of mounting. They are usually rounded on the open ends like Claudio's, but I don't see any problems with this bar aside from the Bravery Medal being a Spangenst?ck.

[dond]

Thanks for the comments. The only other award that has a marking is the EK2- marked KO. Here are some more scans. Front. The patina on this is dark in the lower areas.

[dond]

This award has a lot of wear to it front and back. You can see were it has rubbed against the BMVK3. Also, there is this mark on the bottom edge.

[Scott P]

dond,i just want to say that is a fine looking medal bar you got there.What I like is the order the medals were placed(no FF cross),but now I have a question on the bravery medal.Is that a higher award then the MVK?Why was it awarded because I thought the MVK was a bravery medal like a EK2.

Scott

[Gerd Becker]

dond,i just want to say that is a fine looking medal bar you got there.What I like is the order the medals were placed(no FF cross),but now I have a question on the bravery medal.Is that a higher award then the MVK?Why was it awarded because I thought the MVK was a bravery medal like a EK2.

Scott

Scott, while the MVK was awarded as a Service award more or less, the Bavarian Military Merit Medal was awarded for an extraordinare act of bravery. If you read the citations for these bravery Medals, you will understand. Chris B. has some, i see if i can find the thread about his or maybe he likes to post it again here?

Don, the MMM looks very odd, as if its double-struck, but only on the profile of Max Joseph, but i believe, its a real Spangenst?ck.

Gerd

[dond]

The strange look comes from the light of the scanner playing off the shiny areas and the patina.

[Scott P]

Thanks for the info Gerd,but now You are making me have to ask another question.The MVK a service award?I understand I think?

that EK2s were handed out like candy;so would this be the same for a MVK?

Scott

[saschaw]

Thanks for the info Gerd,but now You are making me have to ask another question.The MVK a service award?I understand I think?

that EK2s were handed out like candy;so would this be the same for a MVK?

Scott

No, it's the highest bravery award of Bavaria in World War I to NCOs. Only the Golden MVM, of course, ranks higher. If you're a WWII guy: It's a equivalent to the "Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes 1939"!

Edit:

My apologize, I have misread it. I've been talking about the "MVM", not about the "MVK".

Edited March 2, 2007 by saschaw

[dond]

So based upon the mark on the edge who is the maker of the MVM?

[Dave Danner]

Thanks for the info Gerd,but now You are making me have to ask another question.The MVK a service award?I understand I think?

that EK2s were handed out like candy;so would this be the same for a MVK?

Scott

MVKs were essentially the Bavarian equivalent of the EK, only awarded based on rank. The lowest class, the MVK3X, awarded to junior enlisted soldiers, was awarded about 290,000 times.

Sources differ, but the silver MVM was awarded about 2,900 times and the golden MVM about 1,000 times. For comparison to the other top enlisted awards of the German states:

Prussia, Goldenes Milit?rverdienstkreuz - 1,770 or 1,773

Saxony, Goldene Milit?r-St. Heinrich-Medaille - 150

Saxony, Silberne Milit?r-St. Heinrich-Medaille - 8,299+

W?rttemberg, Goldene Milit?rverdienstmedaille - 2,402 to non-officers (it was also awarded to officers)

Baden, silberne Verdienstmedaille des Milit?r-Karl-Friedrich-Verdienstordens - 1,282

Of course the one that beats them out for rarity is Baden's goldene Verdienstmedaille des Milit?r-Karl-Friedrich-Verdienstordens, since despite a number of recommendations, that was never awarded in World War I.

[Wild Card]

Originals of this type have to have a very thick suspension ring and the name of the medal maker (artist) J.RIES on the frontside. Please see enclosed pic of an original medal.

While this information is correct for WW1 awards, prior to that, going back to the first awards, ca. 1800, there were several changes. For our purposes, I would only point out that the medals awarded for 1870/1, China and Southwest Africa had a smaller bust of Max Josef and no ?J. Ries?. Also, as we go back in time the style of the ?se seems to have gone through numerous legitimate changes.

I hope that this information is helpful.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[militaria0815]

While this information is correct for WW1 awards, prior to that, going back to the first awards, ca. 1800, there were several changes. For our purposes, I would only point out that the medals awarded for 1870/1, China and Southwest Africa had a smaller bust of Max Josef and no ?J. Ries?. Also, as we go back in time the style of the ?se seems to have gone through numerous legitimate changes.

I hope that this information is helpful.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

The medal type w J.RIES was first made by the end of the year 1870. In the war 1870/71 133 golden and 612 silver medals were awarded from this type, which was then also the the type which was awarded in WW1 (1198 golden and 2932 silver medals). Because ot this fact I doubt that for China and Southwest Africa the early type was awarded as I am sure that there were no more old style medals in stock.