Imperial German Militaria Undervalued: Why?

[Ed_Haynes]

Any historian who thinks they can make money off their publishing, I have some beach-front property in Iowa to sell them.

[Luftmensch]

Any historian who thinks they can make money off their publishing, I have some beach-front property in Iowa to sell them.

Ed, talk to a university employed historian about the importance of publishing.

[Stogieman]

...... that's odd, the only investment I ever made has been to buy land on the EASTERN side of the San Andreas fault..... as soon as California sloughs off into the ocean, I'll be sitting on 2300 miles of PRIME beachfront real estate...... after I sell it all, I'm going to invest it in "Used Chewing Gum of The Rich & Famous"....... I will die a wealthy man...........

[Guest Rick Research]

Ummm.... not Google. Thus endeth my internet stock advice.

Otherwise: sell out NOW.

Kids ALREADY don't care.

They already think Robert E. Eisenhower and Joe Hitler rode into the Arctic together in Gulf War 1 to beat the... uh... they'll get that part NEXT year. Vietnam is to them is as distant as Sparta on a time scale that began with their own births. Pod people, before whom there was a dark, echoing void of irrelevancy.

There is NO "next generation" that will be able to pay Current Market Value for more than a crumb or two at a time from when all us Old Farts croak... and when we do, they'll be paralytic twitching about uncertainty over whether the single item is "good" or not-- not because non-originals have (DOH!) no historical value but because of re-retail potential. Try putting that New Liver on hold trying to dump an entire collection at once in a slow sales environment. Who that IS interested is going to NEED any of our "everythings" and be ABLE to pay for it all? Nope, one at a freakin' time to the world of Future eCrap (after they have banned everything because War Is Bad And Harmful To Growing Things? Hmmmm. Back to Future Yard Sales, d?j? vu all over again!)

I'm KEEPING all my stuff.

I'm a Collector.

When I die, alone and unwanted (preferably having outlived the Final Cat* otherwise it could be awkward, setting up THAT Trust Fund), whoever I decide has sucked up to me in sufficiently gratifying ways at that hopefully far off Finality can HAVE all of MY stuff, because where I'll have gone, Cash Don't Matter.

What, me worry?

Life is EASY when one is a Bachelor* Philosopher King, M.A., B.A. (Hons.) History

* Tho' the way Massachusetts is going, perhaps by then I'll be able to MARRY the Final Cat, thereby evading costly legal processing issues. Who says societal rot has no silver linings?

[joe campbell]

just for the record.... i've REALLY enjoyed

collecting used KLEENEX of the rich and famous,

and my mentor (professor research) has ASSURED me

that i will be fabulously wealthy one day, perhaps with

enough shekels to buy the beach front property in

iowa.... or nevada...

started with TR....

NEVER have i considered it a mistake...

just a hideously expensive lesson...

but perhaps the most valuable of lessons,

and the source of my personal mantra,

one that i chant every time i walk up

to a table or pursue an internet site...

BAYS.... BAYS.... BAYS.....

(boy are you stupid.)

i'm much less stupid now.

i actually know something about the history

of what i'm gazing upon.

and as much as i'd love a PLM or kaiser bill's

medal bar or the first iron cross ever made,

car payments/college education/a trip to verdun

are less stupid and a reasonable goal as well.

i am thankful for the pieces i caretake, but more

thankful for the friends i've found and ALL the lessons learned.

joe

[Luftmensch]

whoever I decide has sucked up to me in sufficiently gratifying ways at that hopefully far off Finality can HAVE all of MY stuff

AHA...that's why this forum reads like an EVIL Twin Mutual Admiration Society.

Actually you two make it look easy the way you deftly weave a mob of discordant voices into a tapestry of colorful revelation and fellowship!

Howzat for starters?

[landsknechte]

Actually, the few TRUE historians I know are very interested in the commercial development of their ideas--whether through publishing, consulting, and so on--so they can feed their families...

I never meant to imply that that historians should be part of some reclusive monastic order. I wasn't talking about the intellectual "products" of historians, not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm all for historians being able to make money from their intellectual products. Heck, I wish I could.

What I was referring to was the objects... A historian is going to look at one of these objects, and the historial significance will be where he or she places the greatest value. An investor looks at one of these objects and views the item as a ingot of gold, a savings bond, or a beanie baby. To the investor, the historical significance matters most as a sort of marketing tool that will someday leverage them a better return.

--Chris

[Ed_Haynes]

Ed, talk to a university employed historian about the importance of publishing.

I am one of them. And we make no money from our publications.

Important, sure. Money-making, what a joke. Unless you write a mass-market textbook, but I am talking about scholarship here.

[Luftmensch]

I am one of them. And we make no money from our publications.

Yes, but professors have to publish or perish, no? We're not talking royalties, here, but requirements of tenure and keeping your salary....

[Ed_Haynes]

Actually, in today's corporatized universities, tenure and promotion are more about teaching-teaching-teaching (assembly line work and producing a body-count) and personal loyalty to the burgeoning administrations. At most universities, except the very best, scholarship really matters little (in teh sciences, you need to get grants, but thos emean money for the university). And nothing that Folks Like Us do matters AT ALL. Trust me. (Being considered for promotion even as I write.)

Back to medals . . . .

[Luftmensch]

What I was referring to was the objects... A historian is going to look at one of these objects, and the historial significance will be where he or she places the greatest value.

Of course! But it is a balance. I casually used the word our "investments" which is on a semantical #@*! list and wound up representing the Weltkrieg Investments Fund, Inc.!

Even as investments, there maybe something subconscious about our preferences. I know a furrier who buys every Waterloo medal that comes up for auction. I'm not sure if he knows what century the battle occurred. For him it's a pure income play. But maybe he's the reincarnation of Wellington!

Edited October 29, 2005 by Luftmensch

[Luftmensch]

Actually, in today's corporatized universities...

Sorry to hear that Ed...back to medals.

[Chip]

Just a brief thought. I started collecting in the early 1960s, mostly gathering items from relatives and neighbors. Over my long collecting career, I have had only modest funds to spend. Here I am over forty years later, with my last kid in college and I still don't have much to spend. It used to be that a modest sum could get you a pretty nice item. Now, I am pretty much relagated to postcards (don't get me wrong, I love collecting photos). The point is, it is not only the new collectors that are being priced out or squeezed out of collecting.

For years I just satisfied my interest by inspecting artifacts and keeping lists of manufacturers and dates. A cheap pasttime that allowed me to keep my interest going. To reiterate the point that Rick was making..one can continue to pursue the hobby by other means than money. If you have a deep abiding interest in the subject, you can research to your heart's content without spending a dime.

Chip

[Guest Rick Research]

Hmmm... a tapestry would be REALLY classy! I've always thought of us all as a sort of macram? throw rug of diverse slightly unravelled rainbow threads... or the sort of left-over adults at family holidays who have to eat in the other room with the children too small to object! (It IS nice to have Fellow Sufferers whose eyes do not glaze over as they try unobtrusively to seek a direction--any direction-- for escape )

"started with TR....

NEVER have i considered it a mistake...

just a hideously expensive lesson...

but perhaps the most valuable of lessons,

and the source of my personal mantra,

one that i chant every time i walk up

to a table or pursue an internet site...

BAYS.... BAYS.... BAYS.....

(boy are you stupid.)

i'm much less stupid now."

I've heard WORSE on Life's Journey To Maximum Self-Realization! I'd settle for that!

(I could write THOSE kind of books. Scary thing is that people USE them as the moral compasses on which to float THEIR Lives' Journeys! )

"one can continue to pursue the hobby by other means than money. If you have a deep abiding interest in the subject, you can research to your heart's content without spending a dime."

EXACTLY so. Such quiet time is NEVER wasted, fills in those heartachingly long Dry Spells, allows the Old And Duplicitous to SMACK the Young And Strong right out of the way, AND provides personal satisfaction more important than fame or riches.

OK, THAT part I'm lying about.

None of us can solve the world's problems (though I have REPEATEDLY offered my services as Supreme Ultimate Planetary Arbiter to the U.N., they no longer respond to my letters ) but if we can untangle some bizarre ancient trivia about 100 year old regulations, I know that I personally feel as if I just caught the Unabomber singlehanded and am being driven (next to Walter Mitty) down a ticker tape parade.

I prefer the accolade "eccentric" to "weird," please.

[Stogieman]

I have many solutions to the world's problems..... however I have elected to tell no-one. Shangri-La we shall never see. It's all just part of me Evil Plan For World Domination....... one Imperial Flight Badge at a time.........

[Guest Rick Research]

Frighteningly enough, the Evil Twin speaks truth there.

Didja ever wonder how Doctor No made all that cash to finance his Evil Dreams Of Global Domination? (Raisenettes at movie theaters in case you DON'T own the Big Golden Book Of Movie Trivia.)

Well, you'd be surprised how many silicone-implanted latex-clad spike-heeled former KGB operatives named Tanya you CAN buy with the proceeds of a Flying Badge Slush Fund.

[Daniel Murphy]

I do not believe , in general, that imperial is undervalued. The well known items, Pour le Merite, Iron Cross etc. are at record levels. However the obscure order from a small principality that was only awarded 8 times, languishes at a fraction of the price of the well knowns. Because most people do not do their home work and have no idea of what it is. The collector who does gets what they feel is a deal on a rare item. I say enjoy it, do not look at it as an investment because when you got to sell it, those same people or others just like them will say"Huh, whats that?".

Price is determined by rarity and demand. If there is rarity and no demand, good luck ever selling it. If an item is common and there is intense demand for every little variation or maker mark, you will have what we see now with TR. If I collected TR, there is still no way I am going to pay $300 for an IAB, PAB etc. I don't care how nice it is or whether Detlev said it was the best he had ever seen, they made millions of them.

I say collect what you enjoy, and if you do not enjoy what you are collecting (even if it is looked at as a good investment) dump it and go collect those Star Wars figurines, baseball cards, (insert one) you have had your eye on.

I love collecting imperial German, and I will continue to collect it until I get tired of it or I am dead. Does it have value? Right now and hopefully in the future, Yes. 20 years from now if there was a stock market crash (God forbid) it would have no value because everyone would be preoccupied with paying their rent, putting food on the table etc. Would it have value then? Little (bullion value) or none.

Meanwhile, there are a few dealers, who do not do their homework either. And when they slip up I am happy to take the item off their hands for a tenth of the current value. Just like I got my russian Jeweler made Kulm Cross.

[Stogieman]

Sound advice. The only sure-fire investment is Real Estate anyway. They're not making any more! Undervalued?? I wish I had half of what has floated through my hands over the years..... I cannot think of anything that isn't at least 30% higher in "value"....

I tell everyone who asks me to buy what they like. if it increases in value? Super, icing on the cake. If it doesn't, so what? you have what you like!

[Bob Hunter]

When did Will Rogers join the forum?

[Blitz]

Under-valued? No. Not in a million years. To me Imperial items are beginning to get too expensive. If someone thinks that Imperial items are undervalued, take a look at the derrittmeisters catalogue. There are items there that should be in the range of 3500 $ instead of the 6000 $ he is asking for them. If someone has a feeling that Imperial items are undervalued, I'd keep it to myself before dealers get wind of it and "repair" their mistake.

[Eric Schena]

Hi all:

I hope you don't mind me chiming in here (Imperial's not my usual haunt), but I figure this is a debate that transcends Imperial.

My basic collecting philosophy has always been "Collect what you like and pay what you feel is right." Don't want to spend $100 for an EK2 - then don't. I personally wouldn't even so much as touch one at that price. I have a very, very small collection of Imperial (I posted some albeit misidentified bandschnalle earlier - the penalty for posting after along day at the salt mines), all of which I like and every piece I paid exactly what I wanted to pay for it. I'd love to add a 1939 EK1 to my collection, but there's no way I'm paying $300 for one, so I don't. To be honest, at this stage, I don't see myself getting another piece of Imperial and I know I won't be buying any TR.

Now, for some things, I'll go after them hook, line and sinker without regard for resale value: for instance, nice communist Albanian medals. I can count on one hand the number of serious collectors of communist Albanian decorations there are. Then again, with those, I am as much collecting information as I am the actual artifact themselves. In other words, not much of a resale market there.

Now, to be honest, sometimes I sell stuff to add more focus to what my main interests are and frankly, the key for me is selling to people who will appreciate the item for what it is, rather than as something they can flip. In all but a few cases, I lost money rather than made it - and I will even give stuff away to people whom I know will appreciate the item. It's a hobby - it should be fun for me and for others. Does it bother me to have maybe lost cash when I sold the stuff? Nope - because I used that money to help get other items that are a current focus, plus the other party is happy they got a decent deal and in many cases, I've made good friends in the process, so what's there to be unhappy about?

Medals are actually more of a side line thing for me, though that may be debatable considering how into obscure Albanian decorations I have been getting. My primary hobby has been paper money, tokens, and fiscal ephemera from Virginia (mostly the Shenandoah Valley/I-81 corridor). Some of this stuff is mainstream, like national bank notes where the interest is multifaceted and is long established, but some of it is downright rarified, such as antebellum bank letters. And a substantial majority of this stuff is downright rare in a field where "common" material is if there are more than 100 known of any particular item. I've paid what I wanted to pay to get items I knew would not be seen in the open market for decades. For instance, I recently got a national from a Fauquier Co. bank that was at the upper end of my comfort zone that has a grand total of around 7 appearances in the open market in 60 years but I knew I would likely not see another for years, so I gladly paid the price for it. That, and I happen to be writing a book about the subject matter Some would call me insane for some of the prices I've paid for diabolically rare aluminum tokens from places no more than wide spots in the road in Rockingham, Shenandoah or Augusta Co. - they're plain jane and made out of aluminum for goodness sakes I like them, I research them, and I'm even writing about them

Sorry for the rambling musings...

Cheers,

Eric

Edited November 1, 2005 by Eric Schena

[Stogieman]

Greetings Eric! welcome to the forum and thanks for adding your philosophy to this debate!

[Chris Boonzaier]

Another one too good to let die... :-)

[VtwinVince]

Good job resurrecting this thread, Chris, it is a really good read. I started collecting 35 years ago, Imperial and Third Reich, then I gave it up to help finance university, then I inherited some really nice family pieces, then I got married and started my own family which ended in divorce. Now I've been collecting again for a few years, and I've gone completely over to Imperial. The variety, the quality, the history - you just can't compare with Third Reich. I'm also not a big fan of AH's shameless use of Prussian iconography for propaganda purposes, as is evidenced by the 1939 Iron Cross. When I see a Knight's Cross, I think "Yeah, that's pretty nice", but my brain doesn't say "Man, I have to have one of those in my collection". That's what happens when I see a nice ordensspange from the Wars of Unification. As for value and investing, I buy only what I like, and sometimes I pay too much, sometimes I get a good deal. But I'm not in it to make a profit.

[Chris Boonzaier]

"The only sure-fire investment is Real Estate anyway. They're not making any more!"

What a difference 3 years brings!!