Mongolia Public service message - buyers beware

[Bob]

Fellow forum-members:

I was approached today to purchase a unique and very attractive (and expensive) documented group.

This group was offered to me by a middle man who himself did not own it and with whom I've had good dealings in the past.

However, it quickly became clear that the group was in fact already in possession of another forum member who's clearly not interested in selling it ( ) so the person offering the group for sale via the middle man was not at all in a position to offer it for sale AGAIN. I hope it turns out this all rests on "confusion" but I'd be surprised given that photographs were provided to me which were not publically available on this GMIC forum.

I've discussed with the real owner of the group as well as with the middle man and they are equally puzzled by what is happening here.

Lesson is clear: please all be aware of things offered which may have shady background and be sure to refer to this forum first (e.g. also checking the award numbers/dates thread - if it's included there... somebody here most likely has it in possession and odds of being for sale would be small I guess).

[Ed_Haynes]

All is can say is: Be very very very careful.

[Bob]

Unfortunately I feel compelled to post another addition to this thread and this time also be more specific as I've experienced a more recent example now.

It is not my intention to create "fight" but I do believe that in the small Mongolia collecting community some self-policing is appropriate to keep the hobby clean. Perhaps it is not common to go public with such disputes but I personally see at the end of the day no difference vs. other commercial transactions (e.g. buying a pair of jeans) where the conduct I will describe would also be considered unacceptable.

The forum member usairforce recently offered an item for sale to me. I confirmed to him I'd buy at his quoted price and asked for details on how he'd like to be paid. In response to this, I received an email that the item had been sold already.

Subsequently I saw the same item for sale on eBay by another forum member reichsrommel. Thinking "lucky me", I pressed the "buy it now" button and subsequently requested the total amount to be paid including shipping so I could paypal the amount asap. In response to this, I was informed that reichsrommel did not actually OWN the item offered for sale on eBay but that he was offering it for sale on behalf of usairforce. I was also informed that apparently the item was not for sale anymore because the item had been sold by usairforce already.

Guys, the Mongolia collecting community is very small and very pleasurable. Above kind of behaviour undermines this though and, to be perfectly honest, I find it unacceptable. Furthermore, please be aware that through this kind of behaviour you are undermining your own credibility both on and off this forum.

[Bob]

In case dealers / sellers have difficulting in understanding the "so what" of above messages. Let me summarize:

1) when you offer items for sale, describe them accurately

2) do not offer items for sale which you do not own

3) when you offer something for sale and a buyer explicitly commits to buying it, the deal is formalized therefore the item is not to be up for sale to other people anymore

These are relatively simple "rules" to live by... IF you are interested in building a loyal long-term and profitable client base... and they are beneficial for both the buyer and the seller.

[Ed_Haynes]

Such unethical practices are quite disturbing. Thanks for the warning, Bob.

I agree with all your comments.

I would hope to see a response from "reichsrommel" and "usairforce".

Edited October 12, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[usairforce]

Hello everyone

This polar star is mine, i hope to sell it to BOB, but i couldn't accept paypal and i really need cash. so i sold it in China .

Here, I apologize to the BOB.

[reichsrommel]

Hi, Guys

Thanks if you can hear my words. I am a collector for Mongolian, North Korean and TR collectibles. I love this hobby and do my best to be a good dealer and collector. As I explain in the letter to Bob, I said:

------------------------

I am sorry for this happened. Please accept my sincere apology for this. In fact, after you purchase this item, even eBay has charged me about $10 fee! And I really don't know how Wang Ning communicate with you, but he asked me to sell it for him first. He told me this has been sold after I found you have purchased it in my store and contacted him. I do my best at my position. I really can't force others how to do.

There is few people in China who knows how to sell their items to international buyers, so some contacted me to help them. In fact, I found it is common even in the international market. Once I want to buy something from xxxxxx.com, but the webmaster said he would ask the owner too. I know it is the rule of GMIC or other community, but I think it is not eBay's. And there are many problems if I help friends to sell their things. Maybe I will reconsider whether I will do so in the future. But this time, I am intended to help friends, really.

I am very very sorry for this. You are a reputable collector, and I have learned much from you. Please forgive our bad behaviors. I think it will never happen.

--------------------

I know it is not good to make the private mail known to public, but I just want to defend myself in this matter. I just want to help 'usairforce'. He asked me to sell this item for him, so I listed it on eBay. I know GMIC do not allow the item you don't own to sell. But eBay has no such rule. That is why I just list on eBay, not here. Very sorry there happened a unpleased thing. 'usairforce' told me he really need money, and I told him if this item is sold from eBay, it can only accept Paypal payment in US dollars. In that case, I can't pay him RMB(Chinese Yuan). One or two days fter the item has been listed on eBay, he told me this item has been sold to a Chinese collector. He once told me Bob has the interest and want to buy it. That is true. But I am very very sorry I have no time to end this item. I am busy at my work these days. I went home every day after 21:00! I just enter my mail box to check the mails. So no time to do eBay business.

In fact, I and 'usairforce' are good friends. We are very very pleased to know Bob, Ed and other collectors in Mongolian community. And thanks Bob, he just accept my invitation to be my military collection magazine Clarion's consultant. I really do not want to do such bad things to others, I hope you can forgive our bad manners.

Yours sincerely, Tang Si

[usairforce]

In October the 7th bob send a message to me :Hi - interested in selling any items? So i give him i want to sell the mongolia Awards photos , his say:

I am interested in purchasing the polar star:

- do you accept Paypal or IBAN / BIC?

- what is the story behind it?

- what is written on the small peace of paper on photograph?

- you ship to belgium?

At the same time i selling this in China , i unacceptable PAYPAL , and in China my friend very like this ,so i sold it to him ,Because I think bob No definite to buy it, and i also did not give the answer sale set to bob , i ask my friend reichsrommel help me to sell it on ebay , but after he listed it, I complete the transaction with the buyer, and then he has no time to removed it .

Edited October 12, 2007 by usairforce

[Bob]

Hello everyone

This polar star is mine, i hope to sell it to BOB, but i couldn't accept paypal and i really need cash. so i sold it in China .

Here, I apologize to the BOB.

I appreciate your apology. I am puzzled by your explanation though since I actually asked you in a subsequent email HOW you would like to have received payment. Had you indicated to me that you didn't accept paypal, I would have happily made different arrangements.

Besides, if you wanted cash, then why go to the trouble of posting it on eBay via a 3rd party who does accept Paypal.

Let's call a spade a spade. Isn't a more plausible explanation that you backed out of a deal because a "quick buck" could be made elsewhere?

This example coupled with the first post in this thread puts a dark cloud over some of the dealings in Mongolian awards.

Edited October 12, 2007 by Bob

[usairforce]

English is not my native language, so some slangs I can't understand well. Can you express your meanings more obviously? I am afraid I misunderstand your words again!

[Ed_Haynes]

While an argument might be made that this has run its course and that warning flags have been adequately raised, I see no reason to close off this discussion. Yet.

The trade in Mongolian awards is so new, so immature, and in so much flux that maintaining absolutely ethical business practices is vitally important. If we, as a small community of collectors, are to remain friends, we need to be absolutely honest in all our dealings. Language issues can surely get in the way, but we need to be certain that nothing less worthy is going on.

Selling things you do not personally own is near the top of the list of bad business practices. Trying to sell a group that is in the collection of another collector on the forum (which was posted on the forum and which also happens to be right here on the desk in front of me even as I type) is not a clean business practice.

Wearing my "moderator hat" (as well as my "collector hat"), I shall be monitoring this thread closely.

===================

This is the best that Google can do and is probably quite funny.

而一个论点可能提出的，这已开办课程，并把警示旗已有所提出的，我看不出有什么理由，以关闭这一讨论。然而。

业内人士在蒙古奖是个很新的，所以不成熟，在这么多流量，保持绝对道德商业行为是相当重要的。如果我们作为一个小社会的收藏者，要保持朋友，我们必须绝对诚实，在我们的所有交易的情况。语言问题，就一定能够找到路，但我们必须予以肯定的是，不啻值得回事。

卖东西，你不亲自本身是靠近顶部的名单上的不良经营手法。试图出售一组是在收集另一收藏家对论坛（这是张贴在论坛上，这也恰恰是这里，就在书桌前的我，甚至在我型） ，是不是一个廉洁的营商惯例。

穿着我的"主持人帽子" （以及我的"收藏家帽子" ） ，我会在这个监测线程密切。

Edited October 12, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[usairforce]

English is not my native language, so some slangs I can't understand well. Can you express your meanings more obviously? I am afraid I misunderstand your words again! I respect you, I hope you DO NOT say something alarming.

[Bob]

Tang Si - in response to your post (and also usairforce), trust me I WANT to believe in people's good faith but have a hard time accepting practices which aren't appropriate regardless of whether it's in a "rules book" or not. Somethings shouldn't have to be in a rules book. Note by the way that eBay does have a policy prohibiting sale of items offered on eBay outside of eBay and also specifies: "When a seller lists an item on eBay, and a buyer bids for and wins that item, the seller and buyer have entered into a contract that both members are expected to honor."

Bottom line is you offered something for sale, I committed to purchasing it via "buy it now", I asked for total cost including shipping and then I'm told you don't own it.

It's very simple really: don't sell things you don't own.

I got burned (too bad, I would have wanted to buy this very specific item) but be aware that dealers also get burned through this behaviour. It's very easy to ruin a reputation, very difficult to build one up.

====

Added (and probably funny too):

唐四-回应你的职位（也 usairforce） ，信任我，我愿意相信，在人们的善意，但有一个困难的时候接受的做法是不恰当的，无论是否是一个"规则书"或不是。 somethings应不须在一个有规则的书。说明方式，即在ebay是否有政策禁止买卖的物品提供ebay上外面的ebay和还规定： "当一个卖方名单，一个项目在ebay上，买方出价，并赢得该项目时，买方和卖方都进入一项合同，双方成员预计荣誉称号。 "

底线是，你所提供的东西出售，我决心购买，它通过"现在购买" ，我问，为总成本包括运费，然后我告诉你，并没有拥有它。

这很简单，真的：不卖东西，你不要自己的。

我得到烧毁（太差，我会想要买这样一个非常具体的项目） ，但也知道，经销商也者必自焚通过这一行为。它很容易断送美誉，就很难建立一个到了。

Edited October 12, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[Bob]

I will refrain from further postings on this specific recent example. I hope all have learned from it and we can continue to be a good friendly collecting / research community incl reichsrommel and usairforce and with commercial transactions which benefit all parties involved.

Remember though, one example is a merely a datapoint, two examples are already more than a coincidence... a third example establishes a clear trend.

I hope it doesn't come to a third example.

[reichsrommel]

Hi, Ed and Bob

Thanks for your help and your warming translation from Google, though almost all are wrong.

As I once replied to Bob's mail and Ed's message, and you can see above in my response, situation in China is different from the global market. Many collectors want to sell their collection to international buyers, but they have no access to international payment or other things. Some asked the ones like me who are familiar with global market to help them. If it is you, my dear Bob and Ed, how will you do if you encountered such situation? You will deny them? I think it is none of the business with a dealer's trustworthy or not. I obey the rules in this forum. So I did not list it here. But eBay do not, so I listed it there. I think you can't make conclusion that I am a bad dealer just for one dispute which is not mainly my fault.

I have good intention to help others, I definately don't know something unhappy happended, and made another man angry. Also, you can say it is plausible explanation, but I always insist this is my words from my heart!!

Any way, thanks for your help in the past. Thanks Bob and Ed.

Tang Si

Edited October 12, 2007 by reichsrommel

[usairforce]

First, I did not take the initiative to sell ,BOB send a message to me ask me what i want to selling , so i give him my photos.

At the same time a Chinese collector want to buy it, but bob not tell me "I will take it" so i sold to chinese collector.

We all want honesty, integrity of the Chinese people have always attached importance to, but in this matter is only a problem of communication, not risen to such high height.

[Eric Gaumann]

Well if nothing else I now know who *not* to buy from.

I'm sure that doesn't make Bob feel any better but he at least saved someone else the headache.

[usairforce]

Edited October 13, 2007 by usairforce

[Bob]

Dear all - both usairforce and reichsrommel have been in contact with me offline to apologize for the issue which the last several posts have focussed on and have gone the extra mile to correct it.

I appreciate their response and efforts to resolve this. After all, I see it as an indication that they value maintaining a good reputation by sticking to solid business practices and good relations with the collecting community and look forward to this continuing in the future.

The Mongolia area of collecting is a very small one and, as far as I have been able to experience, one which a very good community spirit (especially on this board). I hope it stays this way for all (and sharing information and upholding high standards is key to this in my eyes).

Kind regards,

Bob

[reichsrommel]

Thanks for your understanding, Bob

Tang Si

[Chuck In Oregon]

I don't enjoy controversies and I seldom participate in them. I have pondered whether to offer my two cents here and I finally decided that it might be helpful.

I have had a number of transactions with Tang Si -- reichsrommel over the past few years. Each one has been perfectly satisfactory, no problems ever. He has been as good as his word and I have never had cause to question his integrity. I will gladly do business with him again. I probably should have said something before this, but that's the way I see it. YMMV, of course, but that has been my experience. It just seemed to me that you should hear the other side. The usual disclaimers, of course.

Chuck In Oregon

Currently, Chuck in Yerevan

[usairforce]

Thanks for your understanding, Bob

Wang Ning

[Brian Wolfe]

Gentlemen,

I've read your posts with interest and let me say that you are to be congratulated on your gentlemanly behavior throughout this matter. It is a pleasure to belong to this forum.

Cheers to you all.

Brian

Edited October 15, 2007 by Brian Wolfe

[paddywhack]

id like to add that in my dealings with reichrommel hes has been great! i got a north koeran order that broke into peices in the post and he VERY kindly sent me another and let me keep the 1st one to! so id like to say in future id happily do bussiness with him again! not sure realy what happened but it does seem it might have been a genuine mistake!

[new world]

As long as no financial losses occured, both parties to this misunderstanding should be fine.

In my collecting years I've seen many deals falling apart for different reasons.

I used to get very emotional about lost opportunities, but later learned that there are always deals awaiting around the corner, so no reason to beat yourself over something you have little control over.

William