More Bad News

[W McSwiggan]

Check out this link for details (in German) of a massive collection theft. Text and pictures to be found at this location:

https://www.weitze.net/d/diebstahl.htm

I'm at a loss for words!

[Christophe]

What a pity !!! What a collection it was !!!!

Ch.

[joe campbell]

disreputable POS.

may all his tires remain perpetually flat...

joe

[David Gregory]

And a gallery of more detailed images can be seen at http://www.lieber-als.de/bg/index.html

The items could easily have been used to produce a fairly standard work on Imperial orders. The collection must have taken years and a great deal of money to acquire.

I cannot even begin to imagine what effect this must have had on the owner.

Spread the word and increase his chances of at least some of the items being recovered.

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

I notice that there is a good number of British medals in this collection. Since British medals are usually named, if this collection hits the market, the British medals could provide the absolute link. Therefore, I would like to ask if there is any way that the recipient identification information could be disseminated among the British medal collecting community.

Just an idea,

Wild Card

[Christophe]

Gentlemen,

I notice that there is a good number of British medals in this collection. Since British medals are usually named, if this collection hits the market, the British medals could provide the absolute link. Therefore, I would like to ask if there is any way that the recipient identification information could be disseminated among the British medal collecting community.

Just an idea,

Wild Card

←

Excellent idea. Same point about the Soviet orders which are all numbered.

Ch.

[Guest Robbs]

How would you dispose of a collection that big ,no dealer would touch it or auction house and after selling a few medals on ebay the seller would be caught . Perhaps the perp will melt down the silver and gold ones and bury the rest .Rob.

[Wild Card]

Right on the mark, Christophe! Can?t believe I missed that. Thanks -

Wild Card

[Les]

How would you dispose of a collection that big ,no dealer would touch it or auction house and after selling a few medals on ebay the seller would be caught . Perhaps the perp will melt down the silver and gold ones and bury the rest .Rob.

←

Stolen art and stolen artefacts have a long history of people who don't care where an item comes from, only that they have it. Some of them don't care if it has to be hidden away somewhere they can't show anyone else. If you want examples of items that were stolen, seen in public places, and the owners or people claiming ownership to the goodies can't do much about...there is the example of items swept up by the Nazis, and in some cases "liberated" by the Allies who allowed many items to pass into private or public ownership.

Many governments, and American states take the point of view that current ownership is 9/10ths of the law, and particularly if someone paid honest money for an item they bought in good faith is entitled to keep what they have. If the item is seized, and the owner isn't compensated, you have what amounts to official theft and the buyer who bought the item (unawares?) is left up the proverbial creek.

In addition, some American states have an "arm's length" transaction law, that allows anyone who purchased an item from someone who believed the item to be honestly owned, to keep the item even if it has been susbsequently prooven to have been stolen. The thief might be found and prosecuted, but if the item(s) have changed hands several times through "legitimate sales", they may not be recoverable at all, and it's possible the orignial owner they were stolen from is left with nothing at all.

The items with names or numbers are potentially able to be recovered, but if sold through an underground market and change hands several times through "honest sales", the legality of ownership is clouded at the very least.

Gentleman, unless the thief is caught with all of the items, the owner stands to be out quite a bit, even if all of the items are eventually tracked down and located. Imagine if you'd paid through the nose for a breast star of the SAO 20 years after a reported theft, and then find out you had something that was stolen, but is legally yours. Would you retun it without expecting anything in return, or keep it knowing it was stolen, and think of selling it to someone else to get a stolen item out of your collection. Would you tell them it's history, or be quiet about what you knew?

Those...are a few things to consider.

Les

[landsknechte]

How would you dispose of a collection that big ,no dealer would touch it or auction house and after selling a few medals on ebay the seller would be caught . Perhaps the perp will melt down the silver and gold ones and bury the rest .Rob.

←

Lock it all way in a safe for a few years (it's not like this stuff depreciates over time) until most people would have forgotten about it, and then part it out bits at a time under different aliases and in different places.

If it wasn't stolen "to order"...

[Christian L]

thats the worses what could happen to a collector.

not only the money also the time, love and happyness spend on it would break someone.

but the way i think people will react, is that this collection will be sold easily and not even a chance of catching the

because there are enough people around, which don't ask to much if the price is correct.

but i really HOPE, that the thief will get his punishment

christian

[Ulsterman]

Les:

Title NEVER vests with a stolen object. A object, even "fairly bought" MUST be returned. Some local DAs may choose not to enforce this, but you can always sue for FULL compensation from the original owner AND get lawyers' fees.

Arms lengths transactions are uncommon in antiques and nuministics.

Edited September 3, 2005 by Ulsterman

[VtwinVince]

I love the topic of stolen artworks etc. and the crooks who fence them. Just look at the looting of the National Museum in Baghdad, probably done with the complicity of American invaders and involving the fencing of stolen works through countries such as England and Switzerland, which have not signed on as adherents of international treaties banning the sale of such items.

[joe campbell]

vince-

my understanding is that much that had been removed

from the museum in baghdad has been returned.

and with the complicity of the american invaders, no less.

bit of a BGS...

regards,

joe

[VtwinVince]

Joe, you are correct on that point, however, many of the "major" looted works have simply disappeared into the ether. The return of a few cylinder seals doesn't cut it in my humble view.

[Nick]

VtwinVince

This thread is about a stolen collection of items. Please do not try and hijack this worthwhile thread with such a controversial topic, which is obviously politically motivated and unwelcome.

A reply is unnecessary. Back on topic please

Thank you

[PKeating]

How horrible for the victim of the theft. The perpetrator was probably commissioned to carry out the burglary by a dealer or a collector.

PK

[Dave Danner]

Given how well-catalogued the collection was, my thought was someone who had seen the photos arranged the theft. Perhaps, if they were developed from film (as opposed to digital images), someone at the developers. Or someone to whom the owner had shown the photos (fellow collector, insurance agent, or the like).

[W McSwiggan]

Hey Dave!

Welcome to this little corner of the world! Glad to see you here. Hope you will enjoy yourself here.