Paul R Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Order of the Red Banner, #2, #17732800 dollarshttp://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A:IT&ih=004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Those prices make these Order of Lenins seem like bargain basement!!Here is the first Order of Lenin, #84285UndocumentedONLY $2225 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 This one, again undocumented, #278898Went for only 2293.97 dollars.http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A:IT&ih=003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 I have just marked some new arrivals. We will see if the trend continues! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Maroli Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 The original dies used to produce these soviet era pieces are still in the various mints that made them.When the selling price of any object exceeds its manufacturing cost it will be produced for profit.There would be no way of telling a WWII piece from one made yesterday from the original dies.~ED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Zulus Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Order of the Red Banner, #2, #17732800 dollarsDear Paul,I guess, that's a rather moderate & fair price for a RB#2 with such a low s/n. Best regards Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Here is the latest madness!!!Order of the Red Banner, number 92431Went for 1007 dollars!!!!!!http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A:IT&ih=004Compared to what some dealers ask for RB with rather low SN - it's not so bad.Still, overall prices are insane!William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Zulus Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 There would be no way of telling a WWII piece from one made yesterday from the original dies.Dear Ed,what about patina, traces of wear etc. etc. ?O.K., the mint has the dies, but I guess, that it is hardly possible possible to fake a (genuine) patina or to transform an order fresh from the mint to a really used item, which had been worne by the veteran for decades .How knows, maybe the mint produces a series of 5000 genuine Suvorov 1cl . That might result a net profit of about USD 500 million for the mint (if 5000 collectors have the cash to buy a Suvorov 1cl .... )Best regards Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Maroli Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 My fear would be that the rise in prices could result in unscrupulous activity among those who have access to these dies. Maybe I'm a little paranoid. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 (edited) My fear would be that the rise in prices could result in unscrupulous activity among those who have access to these dies. Maybe I'm a little paranoid. EdYour fear is not without a merit.This is totally possible. If one has original dies and uses quality enamel - no one will be able to tell if the award was made 60 years ago or just last month. Creating patina and wear traces is not that difficult at all. I recently heard that going price for Ushakov 1st class is over $700,000 and for Suvorov 1st class is over $250,000. With this type of money involved, what would prevent someone from making few Ushakov orders and selling them as non-awarded? Don't forget that Knight Crosses of Iron Cross were made after the end of WW2 by the folks who got their hands on original dies. It's a well known fact.William Edited February 25, 2008 by new world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Zulus Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Creating patina and wear traces is not that difficult at all.Dear William,I don't believe that .It's chemically impossible to create a decent patina on gold and our experts will easily dedect faked wear traces.Maybe the RF-government is going to lock away the old dies .Best regards Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Dear William,I don't believe that .Christian,it does not matter what you or me believe, if there's so much money involved, people get very inventive. It's chemically impossible to create a decent patina on gold and our experts will easily dedect faked wear traces.Do you honestly think so? Plus, awards I've mentioned are mostly made from platina - platina does not get oxidation. As for the wear traces - if someone shows you genuine non-awarded order - there will be no wear traces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Zulus Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Do you honestly think so? Plus, awards I've mentioned are mostly made from platina - platina does not get oxidation. As for the wear traces - if someone shows you genuine non-awarded order - there will be no wear traces.Dear William,one of our experts posted that years ago at the other Soviet forum, that a faked patina on gold doesn't work.Two points for you :But I never had the money - even not in the early 1990s - to afford one of the two orders made of pure platina .So, "buyer be aware" in the future of high-end non-awarded orders ... Best regards Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric B Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 The original dies are irrelevant; dies for these awards could easily be manufactured. They?re not complex. And with the software, measurement and cutting technology available today they could be made identical to the originals, down to the ?unique? flaws documented in some. It?s no more a worry than any art fraud. There?s a huge amount of fraud in the art, antique, coin, you name it, world. Medals are no different. Though even with today?s ?insane? prices there are far more lucrative markets to counterfeit than awards of the Soviet Union. With less chance of being detected.In a way the Soviet penchant for record keeping has inoculated the current market from fraud, at least at the highest levels. Take a 1st class Ushakov; as a matter of record there were fewer than 50 made and awarded. They are serial numbered. They have associated official records. Now lets say that 50% of them have been destroyed in the past half century, and someone is enterprising enough to identify those that no longer exist. He calls up his tool & die maker, gives him the specs. The dies are made ? the orders fabricated. He calls up his contacts in the various places records are kept to get the real documentation. He marries the two. What does he have? Not 25 x $700,000; for the same reason only a few ?Van Gogh?s? are ?discovered? each decade anyone with the sense to do this knows that you don?t flood the market. You let them go a couple at a time. But in the end he?s STILL stuck with that hard ceiling. He can?t ?discover? more than were issued. And woe to him who screwed up on his research, and ends up ?discovering? one that isn?t really out of circulation. Con games may be romantic, but defrauding someone who spends $700,000 on a piece of specialty art seems like a recipe for a short career, perhaps even a short life.But lets say he does it perfectly. And 20 years from now every single Ushakov 1st is owned by someone. You know what those ?frauds? will do to the market? Nothing. There are still only 50 or so in existence, and if 25 of them are frauds ? but *undetectable* frauds ? then the market will not care.As for ?unissued,? well, what collector would want one? Who would pay more than the cost of the metal and fabrication for something without history? Those who would are welcome to them, but the aficionados will not, and as a such they wouldn?t affect the market for the real deal.Are today?s prices insane? Maybe; art prices fluctuate. Maybe these prices are a high point. But much as we common folk may wish the market would crash so we could collect what we want it won?t happen because of fraud. Or an infusion of newly minted medals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I didn't know the prices where that expensive for long service Red Banners!http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...W:IT&ih=007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I didn't know the prices where that expensive for long service Red Banners!http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...W:IT&ih=007This is nuts!You can buy them cheaper at Eugene's RussianGlory site.William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lapa Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I didn't know the prices where that expensive for long service Red Banners!http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...W:IT&ih=007 Bryan,We may try to rationalize that by saying that it is a MMD production, the oval type with a small flame, of which approximately 27,000 were manufactured, and it is in perfect condition.But I remain, as you my friend, rather miffed by current prices Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteti Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I didn't know the prices where that expensive for long service Red Banners!http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...W:IT&ih=007As the seller claimed... this is anot a common variation... only 20,000 awards of that very specific variation were made!!! This is the effect is variation, sub-variations and sub-sub-variations... every awards are different. Do they deserve to sell for so much because of that? I don't think so. As Bryan said, this is long service and that's what matter to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Interesting points here. I am led to wonder how much of the price rise is driven by these increasingly detailed definitions of varieties, sub-varieties, sub-sub-varieties, sub-sub-sub-varieties, etc.? While there are varieties that have some historical substance, where does the splitting of hairs stop? Each award is, after all, literally unique. Award #378659 is quite different from award #378658, if only in how the number is engraved.I am glad I am more interested in the unique differences of personal history that each award represents than in their increasingly arcane numismatic properties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Amen to all that.Nobody who ever earned one cared how many were made in the batch his came out of.Every one is indeed u-n-i-q-u-e to a Real Person, and has "value" because of who GOT it, not what manufacturing lot it came out of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hipnos Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Gentlemen,I guess, that Igor did a mistake in typing the price tag into the website ?Well, it's just an ordinary and rather late St. George Cross of the 4th class + that medal, of which 697 items had been issued ... Maybe USD 25000,- ....Best regards ChristianChir?stian, what do you think about this Red banner ordr 2nd award...at 400 USD?RegardsMiguel PS/ A Fake...??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hipnos Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 a close up of the backMiguel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 For some of us, Miguiel, the answer to your question would depend entirely on what the recipient of that Red Banner did to earn his or her award. Without research, you are buying a pretty piece of locked-up history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hipnos Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 For some of us, Miguiel, the answer to your question would depend entirely on what the recipient of that Red Banner did to earn his or her award. Without research, you are buying a pretty piece of locked-up history.Yes, is always the same thing...I?ve ever think the th SN of the USSR orders are enought to find the recipient name and so on, but it seems that it?s neccesary to kno the name of the recipient...??So I must admit that a large part of my collection is composed by "pretty piece of locked-up history"...? Sadly...Miguel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lapa Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) Chir?stian, what do you think about this Red banner ordr 2nd award...at 400 USD?RegardsMiguel PS/ A Fake...??? Miguel,It looks good to me; I tend to think that it is genuine.If you can, for confirmation, please post hi-res scans of the front (central area with round wreath, and cartouche and surroundings) and the back (mintmark, S/N and cartouche).Marc Edited March 10, 2008 by Lapa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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