medalnet Posted October 21, 2008 Posted October 21, 2008 (edited) Do you guys think that this one is a candidate to be identified? It is the "Treuen Kriegern" Cross for 1866 Edited October 21, 2008 by medalnet
Paul R Posted October 21, 2008 Posted October 21, 2008 My only comment is that it is an amazing piece!
Guest Rick Research Posted October 21, 2008 Posted October 21, 2008 ABSOLUTELY, Andreas.And seek him among the Generals....Here the INVISIBLE is just as important as what IS there--his Prussian routine Orders have migrated up to his neck, I'd almost guarantee it.This is just earlier than where I have my own database built up.But the gnomes will find him.
saschaw Posted October 21, 2008 Posted October 21, 2008 (edited) Veryyy nice. :love: Do you really don't know yet, what Prussian GENERAL this cute medal bar is from? I don't know either, but would love to know. Great bar, however. I'm curious... PS:uuuh, now the MASTER was faster than me. :rolleyes: Edited October 21, 2008 by saschaw
Guest Rick Research Posted October 21, 2008 Posted October 21, 2008 AHA!!!! Generalleutnant aD (1895) Hartmann Friedrich Wilhelm Heinrich von Hagen (1835-1899)RAO2mE, KO2a. It's very easy, Sascha. Lock yourself away in a room with Rank Lists. Abandon all social life. Forget having children and grandchildren. Do this until you can't remember any other existence.Eventually .... :speechless1:
Riley1965 Posted October 21, 2008 Posted October 21, 2008 ABSOLUTELY, Andreas.And seek him among the Generals....Here the INVISIBLE is just as important as what IS there--his Prussian routine Orders have migrated up to his neck, I'd almost guarantee it.This is just earlier than where I have my own database built up.But the gnomes will find him.Rick,What about this bar suggests it's to a General? I'm trying to learn Doc
Guest Rick Research Posted October 21, 2008 Posted October 21, 2008 He was alive in 1897 (Centenary Medal), which is why he has the 1895 Jubilee oakleaves on his EK2 1870.He's a Prussian (XXV Years Service Cross and 1866 Cross-- the 1870/71 Medal everybody got).He was a fairly "senior" YOUNG officer in 1870/71 because the Anhalt Albert the Bear and Saxon Albert Orders are both Knights 1st Class with Swords...by WW1 those would have been given to Captains, but this far back, often seen as "courtesy bumps" a grade lower to "foreigners" outside each state...and as a career long serving Prussian officer, he would NORMALLY have received a routine Red Eagle Order 4th Class when he reached Major--they all got one a year or so into that rank. There isn't one here. While it might also have been possible that a Prussian officer baled out JUST before getting one... and was simply a living veteran in 1897, odds are that he continued on with his career.No RAO4 as a Major... next as a routine Oberstleutnant he'd have gotten a KO3. Those were purely routine "still breathing" awards for officers in these ranks...and NEITHER is on there....Which means his KO3 was advanced to a KO2 at the neck, and his RAO4 must have passed RAO3with Bow (normal to every Oberst) to an RAO2mE at the neck... normal "still breathing" career/awards progression:so a General.This "XXV with no Prussian Orders" does NOT apply to WW1-era groups, because then, with 5 years double counted time for 1914-18, a 1920 "XXV" retiree was most often demobilized without ever having been a pre-war Major in most cases."XXV wth no Prussian Orders" applies ONLY to groups before 1900 like this one.Not only what awards ARE there, and what awards AREN'T on there... but WHEN they are/aren't. These magical observations derive solely from years of poring over Rank Lists until what was normal, career/awards-wise, remains printed on my brain.No magic tricks... just familiarity with Statistical Averages... and lots of dusty old books. :cat:
saschaw Posted October 21, 2008 Posted October 21, 2008 Thanks Rick for the explanation. I knew what to look for, but would have never been able to explain it here. The identification as fast as we're used to. Great job! Still one thing to mention: why is the Albrecht in the 2nd, post-1876 version?!
VtwinVince Posted October 21, 2008 Posted October 21, 2008 Great detective work, Rick, and an absolutely great spange with an unusual combo of awards. I love it.
scottplen Posted October 21, 2008 Posted October 21, 2008 I only can say WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
medalnet Posted October 21, 2008 Author Posted October 21, 2008 My goodness, this was possibly the fastest ever. Thousand thanks from Virginia!Andreas
Les Posted October 21, 2008 Posted October 21, 2008 It's very easy, Sascha. Lock yourself away in a room with Rank Lists. Abandon all social life. Forget having children and grandchildren. Do this until you can't remember any other existence.Cats. Don't forget a cat, or two, or three.....You can overdo having too many though. The cats taught Mr. Rickee a thing or two that only a critter can teach. Les
Guest Rick Research Posted October 21, 2008 Posted October 21, 2008 Yes indeed. The incorrect portrait 1st Model Alberts were mostly exchanged (quietly) for the correct portrait M1876s, which is another reason they are so rare.There were less than 500 of the 1866-71 "mit Schwertern" in what became the Knight 1st Class grade, and from medal bars I have seen ALL of them in groups of career officers were exchanged for the new M1876. I can't recall ever seeing the bearded model with Xs still in a medal bar, only loose. Maybe the recipients just bought the new type.
medalnet Posted October 22, 2008 Author Posted October 22, 2008 Yes indeed. The incorrect portrait 1st Model Alberts were mostly exchanged (quietly) for the correct portrait M1876s, which is another reason they are so rare.There were less than 500 of the 1866-71 "mit Schwertern" in what became the Knight 1st Class grade, and from medal bars I have seen ALL of them in groups of career officers were exchanged for the new M1876. I can't recall ever seeing the bearded model with Xs still in a medal bar, only loose. Maybe the recipients just bought the new type.?imagine the embarrassment portraying for 26 years the wrong guy on official order decorations!
Glenn J Posted October 22, 2008 Posted October 22, 2008 Generallieutenant v. Hagen's entry in the Offizier-Stammliste of Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 10.RegardsGlenn
Guest Rick Research Posted October 22, 2008 Posted October 22, 2008 Glenn-- what is meant there by "Hohenz.D.M.?" He wasn't in service 1848/49! ???I suspect that is an editorial gaffe, since his Albert entry above shows no Xs, which the Rank Lists do. Anybody with that volume of Roth must show when he got it.His Ernestine Commander with Star is news to me-- too early for my sources. Nice to see his 70/71 bars confirmed. He must have come along too late to have been creditted with being under fire at K?niggr?tz. :cheers:
Glenn J Posted October 22, 2008 Posted October 22, 2008 Rick,sorry but no index of awards in the Stammliste.RegardsGlenn
Dueppel Posted October 22, 2008 Posted October 22, 2008 He got the Albrecht Knight Cross with swords on 23.04.1871.In the 1873 ranklist it is mentioned as SA3 with KD.Best regards Dueppel
nesredep Posted October 22, 2008 Posted October 22, 2008 Helllo!Amazing. :jumping: :jumping: :jumping: All the best Nesredep
Guest Rick Research Posted October 22, 2008 Posted October 22, 2008 Thanks for Albert info! The only "Hohenzollern Denkm?nze" that I find was for the 1848/49 campaign-- so clearly a muistake here... which is why it is not on the medal bar. :catjava:
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