joe campbell Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 just a brief comment....these bars are JUST WONDERFUL to gaze upon!!!!thanks for the visuals AND the descriptions, gentlemen.joe
VtwinVince Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 Claudio, the Kunstmann spange is incredible. Isn't that EK2 in Schinkel-form?
Claudius Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 Hi Claudius,you hadn't wait 80 years - only 30.... Without Crown -WOW. At the risk of mentioning something everyone knows, depending on the source, the House and Merit Order of Duke Peter Friedrich Ludwig 2nd Class w/ Sword and Crown was awarded 247 times between 1839-1918. The DPFL 2nd Class w/Swords (no crown) was awarded only 39 times. The recipients are (mostly) known and this bar is perhaps attributable, through deduction???? Who was still alive in 1934. Who didn't get any other state award. etc.
WNickel Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 Hi Claudius,I don't think so positive - most of the wearer of the DPFL 2nd class with swords were young L dR, who got the HvH 3x too... :wacky:
Guest Rick Research Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 Oldenburg's House Order with Swords 1914-18 Roll is complete. My late friend Neal O'Connor published it in that volume of his aviation series because there were so few of them.I've got a copy of the original roll for the World War which I am fairly sure I've POSTED scans of here somewhere in the past but cannot FIND becauise no matter what I enter to "search" I get the same EIGHT PAGES of "matches." As Werner says, too many "all the same" junior officers about whom nothing else is KNOWN to be able to tell them apart.
Claudius Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 Hallo Werner;I understand you point. But let's look at who we can take out. We know he isn't B?ning and their may be others that have other known awards.Next, he was likely serving in an Oldenburg unit due to also recieving the FA cross (two of the state awards and none others).He was alive in 1934.The bar is very will done and shows the pride of the owner and the maker but it doesn't have the "Vor Dem Feinde" clasp that was authorized on Sept 20th 1918. IMPORTANT: Your bar has a Berlin maker label. Can't we assume he was living in Berlin when the bar was made? There are period address books.Rank name unit award dateOberleutnant Richard Suhrkamp IR 91 18.9.17Leutnant Franz Smits IR 161 18.9.17Oberleutnant zur See Heino von Heimburg Krigshafen Kiel 7.10.17Oberleutnant zur See Max Valentiener U-Flottille Flandern 27.12.17Leutnant Eckert IR 91 17.1.18Leutnant Georg R?ver IR 74 8.2.18Leutnant Karl Giese IR 17 21.2.18Leutnant Karl Arnold IR 115 (Hess) 23.4.18Leutnant Plugradt IR 91 22.5.18Leutnant Hess IR 91 22.5.18Leutnant Schumann IR 91 22.5.18Leutnant Weichardt IR 91 22.5.18Oberleutnant Georg Ruhstrat FAR 58 14.7.18Leutnant Reinhard Murken IR 79 14.7.18Leutnant Walter B?ning Jasta 76b 21.8.18Leutnant Becker IR 91 23.8.18Leutnant Wilhelm Conze IR 91 23.8.18Leutnant Max Bueschel IR 91 23.8.18Leutnant Helmuth Gabriel IR 91 23.8.18Leutnant Edward Gesell Pionier Komp 185 5.9.18Leutnant Friederichsen FAR 17 18.9.18Leutnant Siegfried Harms IR 86 (Schleswig-Holsteinisches) 30.9.18Leutnant Ernst Peltner IR 91 6.10.18Oberleutnant Ahlhorn IR 82 (2.Kurhessische) 16.10.18Oberleutnant Fritz Helmuth IR 91 24.10.18Leutnant Lueder IR 91 8.11.18Leutnant Stotz IR 91 8.11.18Oberleutnant Ziegler (aka Stege) IR 91 8.11.18Leutnant Carstens IR 91 8.11.18Leutnant Wegmann FAR 62 27.1.19Leutnant Thien FAR 62 27.1.19Leutnant von Essen FAR 62 27.1.19
Guest Rick Research Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 Oberleutnant dR Richard Suhrkamp IR 91 18.9.17 (1891-1958)Leutnant dR Franz Smits IR 161 18.9.17Oberleutnant zur See Heino von Heimburg Krigshafen Kiel 7.10.17 Admiral. Many other awardsOberleutnant zur See Max Valentiner U-Flottille Flandern 27.12.17 Pour le Merite amny other awardsLeutnant dR Eckert IR 91 17.1.18Leutnant dR Georg R?ver IR 74 8.2.18Leutnant dL Karl Giese IR 17 21.2.18Leutnant Karl Arnold IR 115 (Hess) 23.4.18Leutnant Kurt Pflugradt IR 91 22.5.18 Other awards, died 1925Leutnant dR Hess IR 91 22.5.18Leutnant dR Schumann IR 91 22.5.18Leutnant G?nther Weichardt IR 91 22.5.18 General Had ?M3KOberleutnant Georg Ruhstrat FAR 58 14.7.18 Also had LKrLeutnant dR Reinhard Murken IR 79 14.7.18Leutnant Walter B?ning Jasta 76b 21.8.18 Other awardsLeutnant Becker IR 91 23.8.18Leutnant Wilhelm Conze IR 91 23.8.18 General. ?M3KLeutnant Max B?schel IR 91 23.8.18 Killed in action 1918Leutnant dR Helmuth Gabriel IR 91 23.8.18Leutnant dR Edward Gesell Pionier Komp 185 5.9.18Leutnant dR Friederichsen FAR 17 18.9.18Leutnant Siegfried Harms IR 86 (Schleswig-Holsteinisches) 30.9.18Leutnant dR Ernst Peltner IR 91 6.10.18Oberleutnant dR Ahlhorn IR 82 (2.Kurhessische) 16.10.18 Had ?M3KOberleutnant dR Fritz Helmuth IR 91 24.10.18Leutnant Lueder IR 91 8.11.18Leutnant Folkert Stotz IR 91 8.11.18 Had HHOberleutnant Ziegler genannt Stege IR 91 8.11.18Leutnant Carstens IR 91 8.11.18Leutnant dR Wegmann FAR 62 RIR 229 27.1.19Leutnant Thien FAR 62 27.1.19 No HOH3XLeutnant von Essen FAR 62 27.1.19 Had Vor dem Feinde bar.That still leaves 20-- 6 of whom we do not even have first names for-- so there is no way to FIND them.
Claudius Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Since the publishing of O'Connor's book ten years ago the first names of these six are still not known? I thought that maybe my list was obsolete and that other re-constructed lists have their full names.While the person can't be identified directly, I had hoped that the bar could be "attributed to".
Guest Rick Research Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 No, that's how they're on the roll. I have a very neatly typed version done in 1940 and "Prussian style" they simply did not bother with first names. I cannot even comprehend what was wrong with the record keepers' brains. How much more basic than "full name" can you get?This, you see, is what makes research so difficult and what takes the Gnomes so much time ADDING data to Rolls to be published to make very... odd originals USEFUL. :beer:
Claudius Posted February 20, 2009 Posted February 20, 2009 You are incredible WNickel!!! You don't have one but TWO bars with DPFL 2nd class mit S. You have got to be kidding me! I can't say enough.I want to know where you go shopping.
WNickel Posted February 21, 2009 Posted February 21, 2009 Hi Claudius,the trick is to buy bars before the whole world know how many awards exists... :D
Claudio Posted February 21, 2009 Posted February 21, 2009 nice backs... can we see the front, please?
Guest Rick Research Posted February 21, 2009 Posted February 21, 2009 You have to remember that Werner is as old as me. We have travelled through much much time.... :cheeky:
WNickel Posted February 21, 2009 Posted February 21, 2009 ..that's right, Rick and Claudio - you know, Rick needs only the backside to find out the wearer... :cool:
saschaw Posted February 21, 2009 Posted February 21, 2009 ...the second...Wow. Holy crap. And I thought that KO was misplaced... :cheers:
WNickel Posted February 21, 2009 Posted February 21, 2009 ..it's an award for the second life-saving....
Paul C Posted February 21, 2009 Posted February 21, 2009 Thoses last 2 by Werner should be a peice of cake to ID? Have you IDed them?
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