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Well, gosh. Just received in the mail xeroxes of the unpublished award rolls for Mecklenburg-Strelitz's WW1 Cross for Distinction in War.

THIS:

[attachmentid=15577][attachmentid=15579]

Roll covers award proposals #3480 (30 November 1917) to being shut down by the Nazis 5 December 1933.

In many cases there are multiple names on the proposals. On others, it is for a single individual. Approval or "ad acta" rejection is noted. Some bear first and last names, others only last names and ranks. Units submitting nominations are shown, usually from divisional level or higher.

This is, basically, a COMPLETE list for the last year of the war, with a burst of late proposals which went on into the mid-1920s (by which time "nominating unit" was in many cases "submitted for himself"). After NEW awards finally petered out, requests for replacements for lost awards and lost documents fill out the last final years as stocks must have been running dry.

GUESS what I will be typing allllllll winter?

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Perchance do you have a Lt. Ernst Rosenhainer, 12 L.I.R. 32 awarded the 1st class on cross on 4.4. 1918? The 2nd was awarded 11/13/1915 while he was with the IR 96, 3rd Company.

Details from: "Forward March":White Mane books Ltd. 2000. It is highly likely his daughter has his award documents.

Edited by Ulsterman
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Yes I do. Number 4072* received 21.3.18, processed 25.3.18, Lt. dR Rosenhainer, LIR32 approved 1st Class 4.4.18.

That * number line is going to be very very VERY important for ever finding things on the original rolls, because they are a MESS. First, a working sample of what I am typing from them, "one page in the life of Mecklenburg-Strelitz"--

[attachmentid=15588]

I am omitting the received and processed dates as clutter. The original format shows the "running line number" which can be for ONE man or for many, but is the only way to find things since action or lack thereof as NOT line by line. By mid 1918 things get REALLY screwy, and processing has NOTHING to do with first in, first out.

In the original things go left to right

Line number

Process date

Receipt date

Nominating authority/unit (this can and does include civilians, pals, family members, and "self")

Person(s) proposed (most often just rank and last name, first names will always be given IF there)

Disposition: "Gen." is for "Genehmigt"-- "Approved," with the date, "Ad acta" = "filed, i.e. rejected.

In the first page I have shown above, MY notation "NN?" means "NO NOTATION so ? was done?" There is no yea or nay there.

If anyone wants to know what the point is of listing REJECTIONS-- for all I know when this is sorted in the final alphabetical listing so we CAN hunt by names, someone might be in there several times, rejected, rejected, approved.

Obviously the deeper in I get, the more an abbreviations code will be easier for the strange but long nominating units like Foot Artillery Exercise Fields, several showing on this one page. So everybody will know what a "F?a?P" is when I make tweaks like that.

You will also note weird little things in there like a unit asking whether their guy already GOT the cross (doh!) and reply "yes he did note sent back" which I have to make as sweet and to the point as possible. Another guy was rejected, appealed, and was rejected AGAIN (for whining, probably). Another guy was proposed by a civilian pal, and noted that this was forwarded to his unit-- whether I ever see Greve later on as a recipient only Prolonged Typing Transliteration will reveal.

The actual handwritten pages are huge so they have been copied as left side/right side. Ask me what my hourly rate is! :rolleyes::cheeky:

1st Classes are mixed in and also show in the notes. I will be able to sort these things out nicely when all gazillion pages are typed-- ask me in April! :speechless1::cheeky:

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Brilliant!!

Well done. :beer:

Ohm-Hieronymussens' book has a few docs in it. Given that there were @3300-4000 crosses (2nd class) awarded 1917-23 and only 398 1st class-you might well be able to reconstruct a majority of the medal roll-certainly for the 1st class (esp. if we cross ref. with other sources).

i tried to attach a scan of the doc, but it was too large. I shall try to email it to you.

Edited by Ulsterman
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I would love to see the aviation winners, especially as 'units' appear to be given. Perhaps you can arrange a NO'C Vol. VIII :P R.

As can be seen from the extract Rick posted, the "units" are the ones nominating the soldier, not necessarily the unit of assignment. Note for example the Reserve Lazarett Neustrelitz. Those NCOs, Fusiliers, Grenadiers, Musketiers, Kanoniers, etc. were more likely patients, not staff. The ones from various training areas may also involve people getting their awards processed during a little time in the rear before returning to the front.

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Indeed. It is most unsatisfactory in that regard, but it is what we got. There ARE a very few specific units, but why this was done the way it was... :speechless: I keep finding questions about whether someone already GOT one, awards authorized and later cancelled as "oopsy already gave him one" and so on-- the NOTES column WILL be included in the final procduct.

I liked Lippe-Detmold's, with full names, unit/rank, date and place of birth and home mailing address.

Mecklenburg-Strelitz was obviously ona flat learrning curve! :speechless::speechless:

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Indeed. It is most unsatisfactory in that regard, but it is what we got. There ARE a very few specific units, but why this was done the way it was... :speechless: I keep finding questions about whether someone already GOT one, awards authorized and later cancelled as "oopsy already gave him one" and so on-- the NOTES column WILL be included in the final procduct.

I liked Lippe-Detmold's, with full names, unit/rank, date and place of birth and home mailing address.

Mecklenburg-Strelitz was obviously ona flat learrning curve! :speechless::speechless:

It helps not to think of Mecklenburg-Strelitz as more than a "Grand" Duchy in anything but name. It was not only the smallest of the grand duchies, it was smaller than every duchy and several principalities, including Lippe-Detmold.

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I've worked through 7 pages and 233 recipients (one of whom was proposed and rejected twice but his third entry turns him down as having been approved... on the second rejection :speechless1: ) and there has only been ONE "red" ribbon 2nd class so far.

But this list, oh this horrible, vague, sloppy list :speechless: seems to have been purely for MILITARY awards, with referrals to the Ministry of the Interior in several cases--

so I suppose there might have been another roll for civilians-- who probably accounted for many if not most of the noncombatant awards.

I'm within sight of 1918!!!!

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Hi Rick,

Seems that you have a very fun job with that list :cat:

In a recent BDOS magazine there was a article on these award iff i remember correctly, i was not aware that there was made a distinction between "noble" people and normal ones. Very strange but seems to have been such a time then :jumping:

Cordial greetings

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Jens-- WHEN I get there, you already have much more information than I'm going to find on the roll--

first name

exact unit

... the rolls is NOT in good order. I can't just go to the "June page" for that week and find anybody... some awards were MONTHS after the proposals and they are entered by when the proposals went in, not when the result was. I had a flip through June and found a mass of awards on the 19th and 27th and he wasn't in those. His Vorschlag line could have been in February or God knows when.

I've already found one No First Name Or Regiment private put in by TWO divisions and listed as rejected twice, and on the third time listed as rejected-- because he was "approved" (SIC!!!!!!!) the second time. :speechless: The only way I can tell all three were the same man is by the file reference numbers being the same on this List.

I am including EVERYBODY, regardless of what action it states on the roll was taken, because it was so insanely sloppily done that I cannot trust "rejected" as having REALLY been rejected. I've found one appealed rejection successful for an award and one appeal rejected, so far-- months apart. I've found a guy who was handed a cross personally by the Grand Duke so the unit had to write in to tell the awards chancery about it-- to get an award document (and what the date on THAT would have been-- when processed, or retroactive to the live presentation, again God alone knows.)

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THIS is what I have to work with. Each "page" of the roll is so large that it had to be xeroxed as TWO pages, left side and right side. I've got 7 (of about 500) pages done). I am working from photocopies of hand scribbled, messy originals in no coherent logical or organized "system."

here is the LEFT side of page 8:

[attachmentid=16105]

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AND then "binocular focus" them together (the GAP is there in the originals-- the fold between two facing pages in the original ledger) BEFORE deciphering the Sutterlin scribbles

[attachmentid=16113]

Ohhhhhhh yes. Fun. Fun fun fun fun FUN. Notice Musketier Henning 3rd from bottom? Neatly has a date written far right? Does NOT say "approved" OR "rejected." VERY helpful, this list. Ohhhhhh yes yes yes yes YES. :rolleyes:

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Now folks, contrast -Strelitz's scrawled mess, its "system" of entering bestowals like "Gefreiter Schmidt 18. Inf. Div."-- which went on from 1914 to 1933 with

Lippe-Detmold's sane, orderly, neat, and COMPLETE rolls:

[attachmentid=16115]

Unfortunately, I only have this one class, only for 1914-18, at this point...

but notice:

Running Number to locate

FULL NAMES

status (military rank and actual real unit/civilian position)

home city (non-natives or outside residents often have their street addresses here)

complete place and date of birth

date actually awarded always in consecutive one after the other when DONE

Uh... -Strelitz was STUPID :speechless::speechless::speechless:

But that's what we've got-- there isn't anything else to go by!!!!

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