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    I was scanning my 1887 Ordensliste First Nachtrag and came across the award numbers for the Prussian Life Saving Medal for 1877. I crossed reference the award number of 119 from the Ordens to Eric Ludvigsen's "Prussian and other Imperial German Award Statictics" and the number in the book matches. Just a point of interest. See below for the pages. the Ordensliste page is shown first followed by the page from The Ludvigsen.

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    Hi,

    who can tell the right numbers after more than 100 years????

    Here are mine...

    1833 24

    1834 55

    1835 33

    1836 45

    1837 53

    1838 41

    1839 66

    1840 31

    1841 48

    1842 48

    1843 36

    1844 37

    1845 61

    1846 56

    1847 48

    1848 55

    1849 69

    1850 76

    1851 60

    1852 64

    1853 40

    1854 77

    Nobody...

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    Guest Rick Research

    Werner:

    When are you going to PUBLISH?

    Research that no one ever SEES is no good to anybody. You have to PUBLISH or all the years and years of work is for nothing.

    Eric never got around to publishing because he was a busy guy and he hated computers. George was a busy guy and he hated computers.

    You have to publish or it is LOST when there is no more Werner.

    Don't waste your research!!!! :shame:

    You also have to cite sources, which Eric did so that anyone with those sources and the inclination to duplicate years of work could do so. This is an art and not a science. Daniel and I have discovered, working on WW1 award rolls that many previously published figures were NOT correct, for a variety of reasons. Many earlier researchers ran their fingers down pages saying "XX per page time YY pages = ZZZ awards." Or even worse, simply looked at the last number on a Roll and decided that was the total-- not reading through for skipped and repeated Laufende Nummern. Many published sources are not correct, given errors (corrected and not corrected) on original rolls, marginal comments (Erhard Roth and Neal O'Connor never looked at marginal notes) and so on.

    In the case of the Prussian Orders List numbers that Eric counted, every single one had a name and a date officially published, which can--as Paul's example shows--be verified in event of any discrepancy.

    The real advantage to Eric's work is that it makes available in one volume ALL numbers for Prussian awards for over a century, as well as many other German states' awards

    which have never been published before and if there WAS a published source on this award or that award, Eric cited it so that anyone interested could know what had and had not been done already.

    Wasted time-- duplicating effort on projects ALREADY done-- is one of the worst things that can happen in a Research Gnome's finite time. Daniel and I have been working for YEARS on 1914-18 and are nowhere near "done" with hundreds and hundreds of thousands of awards transcribed. The vastness of scale for a century of Prussian awards BEFORE the Great War means that anyone who might be inclined, say, to transcribe and publish a list of Crosses of the General Decoration will have some idea with Eric's work what is and is not a manageable task. (I would buy a published list of Prussian Lifesaving Medal winners in a heartbeat. haven't got the sources or the time to DO it, myself. I have one tiny little Prussian Orders List-- for 1858. 55 Lifesaving Medals awarded, 55 in Eric's count.)

    Somebody, I am sure, could transcribe a list of every single Red Eagle Order 4th Class ever gazetted. I'd rather chew my own feet off, but that's because I know how much WORK is involved. For TWO people to be repeating the SAME work is a waste of human effort that should be avoided at all costs. PUBLISHING what is DONE spares gnome-time for OTHER endless tasks that nobody ELSE is going to get to. :cheers:

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    There is another point that should be mentioned regarding the numbers Eric listed and sourced to the Ordens-Listen. Those numbers are for individuals who had received the Orders AND who were still alive as of the date of that particular Ordens-Liste. This became clear to me as I was working through the recipients of awards for the 1866 War (as given in an excerpt from the 1867 Milit?r Wochenblatt Nr. 91 which provides a summarized list of award recipients) and then cross-checking his listings.

    Before anyone suggests that I am impugning Eric's work, I am not. I am merely drawing attention to the fact that he provides totals as reflected in the Ordens-Listen, not necessarily totals awarded that year. And, as Werner correctly points out, who can be certain of absolute numbers so long after the award dates absent primary sources?

    Heck, even the Milit?r Wochenbl?tter contain errors and omissions.

    That said, Eric's work certainly deserves the respect and admiration found here on GMIC.

    Andy

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    Guest Rick Research

    Absolutely. :cheers: A "Nekrolog" supplement of documented awards which "fell through the cracks," while every but as daunting as Eric's MASSIVE work-- since no less TIME would be spent in the doing of it-- would be a much smaller task to PUBLISH. (Names, even, rather than just numbers... :rolleyes: )

    How many recipients of Anyaward got one in 18XX and then died before the next Orders List? Dunno. But from my lone little 1858, at least THAT :speechless1: far back, such folk WERE listed, since their awards were returned and acounted for. I had even suggested, some time back, that COULD it actually be possible to create a Roll (which never existed) of 1813 Iron Cross recipients from the annual accounting of DEAD holders?

    http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=35955

    Project for someone, hmm???? :catjava:

    So MANY projects and so little TIME.

    TIME is always the greatest impediment-- even more so than access to obscure sources. As I say in the preface to Eric's book,

    "The past may be 'over,' but there is always a backlog in processing data!"

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    Hi Rick,

    when they are complete...

    Today I work on the 1914 - 1918 rolls... :cheers::cheers::cheers: with red wine

    Kaether,Dr.

    4. GarFAR + 45. RD),San

    Pr GOA aD ??.??.???? - 99.99.9999

    Jap JapZ 4 J 06.05.1911

    Pr PDA25 J 06.05.1911

    Pr PRAO 4 xawB J 06.05.1911

    Pr PRKM 3 J 06.05.1911

    ?st ?FJ O J 06.05.1911

    DR DRChDM 1 J 00.00.1908

    Kage

    IR 20,Inf

    Pr H 18.04.1917 - 99.99.9999

    Pr OL 27.01.1915 - 18.04.1917

    Pr L 18.11.1907 - 27.01.1915

    A KEIN J 06.05.1914

    Kageneck,Graf von

    Fl?geladj. + Attache Wien (+ Kdr. KavKdo 28),Kav

    Pr O 18.08.1916 - 99.99.9999

    Pr OTL 27.01.1914 - 18.08.1916

    Pr M 24.12.1908 - 27.01.1914

    Pr RM 27.01.1904 - 24.12.1908

    Pr OL 01.09.1899 - 27.01.1904

    Pr SL 18.01.1891 - 01.09.1899

    Anh AnhAdB 2b J 06.05.1914

    Bad BdZL 3a J 06.05.1914

    Bay BM 3 J 06.05.1914

    Belg BelgL 3 J 06.05.1914

    Chin ChinD III/2 J 06.05.1914

    Hoh HohE 3 mKr J 06.05.1914

    Ital ItalM+L 4 J 06.05.1914

    MSw MGr 3 mKr J 06.05.1914

    Pr PHvH 3 J 06.05.1914

    Pr PKrO 3 J 06.05.1914

    Pr PRAO 4 mKr J 06.05.1914

    SLip SLE 3 J 06.05.1914

    Sa SaA 3b J 06.05.1914

    T?r T?rO 4 J 06.05.1914

    W?rtt WrtF 3a J 06.05.1914

    W?rtt WrtK 3 mL?w J 06.05.1914

    ?st ?EK 2 J 06.05.1914

    ?st ?FJ 2a J 06.05.1914

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    Guest Rick Research

    The other thing, of course, is making the results intelligible to any reader. You have some VERY eccentric Wernerecomputer-search stuff, there! :speechless1::cheeky: You've got to column by PAGE width or else it ends up as the world's longest cash register tape. Krause Format, Werner, use Krause Format entries. The more you keep doing in Nickel Format, the harder it will be to RE-DO. :cheers:

    PS NOTHING can ever be "done." Small bits here, small bits there, yes. THIS award or THAT time period-- sure. But to "wait" for The End to be "final" means it will not EVER be DONE. Quote unquote Done = PUBLISHED. Let somebody else build on and improve. But nothing is nothing if it is not SOMETHING Out There.

    Gnomes do not live forever! I am slowing down already decades before George did. One eye and HATING to type are not good incentives to spend vast amounts of time for literally insanely pitiful amounts of monetary "return." But I have "done" SIX of Imperial Germany's states's awards in full or in part that have never been attempted before.

    Small bits (50,000 or so) here, small bits (30,000 or so) there-- and it adds up.

    Now about the 23,000 Sachsen-Meiningen KV Medaillen 1915-18.... :speechless1::speechless1::speechless1:

    (Yes, I have THAT Roll, but damned if I'll spend 6 months typing it to have a list of Gefreiters and Pioniere who got EK2s. Somebody ELSE can "do" it! :catjava: )

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    Guest Rick Research

    Air mail?

    So much nicer in Krause Format than in horrible scratchy Sutterlin! But SO MUCH typing!!!!! :speechless1:

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    Werner:

    When are you going to PUBLISH?

    Research that no one ever SEES is no good to anybody. You have to PUBLISH or all the years and years of work is for nothing.

    Rick, you raise an excellent point here which I hope that all who are contemplating or actually working on such projects will heed. I can not help citing the example of a gentleman who I got to know over the years through OMSA. He spent over a decade creating the ultimate work on the Oldenburg House and Merit Order of Duke Peter Friedrich Ludwig.

    Eric, George and I constantly urged him to publish his work; but there was always something new or something else to be searched out. Of course, he never did publish his work before he died about six years ago. What ever happened to all of that work? I do not know, but can always hope that it has, or will, fall into the hands of someone who will bring it to light as Eric?s work has been.

    Gentlemen, please, consider this. Thank you.

    Wild Card

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    Self-publishing has become the rage in the USA. To publish in Germany is very complicate. You must have a publisher like Autengruber and can not self publish and of course the publisher takes a cut of the profits. In the US anyone can print anything. If someone would like to self-publish in the US contact me and I can help you out.

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    • 3 weeks later...

    They maybe printing outside of Germany. To my understanding you need a publisher to print and copyright a book in Germany.

    Is your understanding based on a legal opinion coming directly from a German lawyer who specializes in publishing and copyright issues, or from someone else who is not a lawyer?

    If you or anyone else is interested, the German Federal laws governing publishing within Germany can be found here:

    http://transpatent.com/gesetze/verlagsg.html

    Les

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    My understanding is based on discussions with people who have published in German. It is nice that you have provided the link to the German laws which govern publishing. From reading through the laws can you determine if a publisher is required to publish in Germany?

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    My understanding is based on discussions with people who have published in German. It is nice that you have provided the link to the German laws which govern publishing. From reading through the laws can you determine if a publisher is required to publish in Germany?

    That last sentence can be construed more than one way and is not entirely clear. If you mean is an writer or author prohibited from self-publishing, and must rely on a publisher to have something formally published, there is nothing in German law that specifically prohibits self-publishing. The laws require a contractual understanding between the author and publisher, and spell out how the basis for contractual agreements between writers/authors and publishers and respective duties, obligations, and prerogatives. What is not specifically stated is whether the publisher and printer are one and the same, or if publishers do the actual process of printing the work, or contract with another business to do it.

    The current German laws were first enacted in 1902, re-written in 2002, and apparently are being re-evaluated even though only a few years have passed since the laws were last updated.

    Should someone self-publish, or rely on professional publishing houses? That's akin to whether Americans who have the option of representing themselves in a legal setting should find a legal counselor to represent them, or do it themselves. The courts are not happy when "non-professional" represent themselves, but the law does not prohibit it. The outcome largely depends on the knowledge and abilities of the person representing themselves, and whether they know how and when to avoid potential pitfalls.

    The "ask a friend" or someone whose been there routine is at best arguable. I suggest consulting a German attorney who specializes in publishing and copyright related legal issues instead of asking a friend or someone who has been there approach. Paraphrasing "Fatty" Arbuckle, the American comedian from the 1930's, you can get what you paid for, or instead you can pay for what you get.

    Les

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    Hi Friends,

    with my very own experience...

    You can publish in Germany as much as You want. No deal.

    It is "just" a question of money and time. If You want the "full program" with ISBN number and so on You need to do some paperwork, pay the fees and "donate" a couple of books to some libraries.

    It is much easier if You have a "real" publisher on Your side.

    But do not forget one point. If You want to make money with writuing, forget Orders and Decorations, write novels :D

    Best regards

    Daniel

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