RARE gem found! KvM!

[CRBeery]

I found this at a nice little show yesterday in a TR dealers case! I think this counts as rare and then some. First, here is what he thought it was: :shame:

[CRBeery]

When I saw it and realized what I was looking at I almost fell over!

This is the ONLY NC KvM I have ever seen mounted. I found one picture posted here but that is it. To say I am happy is an understatement.

[CRBeery]

The back.

[Naxos]

Spectacular!

Beautiful little gem ... and the condition

Congratulations :cheers:

[Chip]

Congratulations on your good fortune. Whoever wrote that label needs a remedial course in Roman numerals, not to mention medal identification! Dealers, you gotta love 'em!

Chip

[CRBeery]

With the sheer number of Imperial awards I can understand missing that one, but like you I found the number thing quite funny. I am pretty sure Roman numerals have not changed for a while not even under the "new math" program. :speechless:

[Ulsterman]

Great Odins' Beard!!

Now THAT is the find of the year!!!!

Congrats old man.

[Guest Rick Research]

That is one of the advantages we STILL have in Imperial-- so much that is rare is small and boring looking to the zinky sun-wheel types!

:cheers:

[Deruelle]

Lucky man, great find indeed

Christophe

[VtwinVince]

Can you explain why you are convinced this is a non-combat Krieger Verdienst, and not a non-combat EK2?

[Stogieman]

Ok, I looked at this real quick this morning. I think the medal is real (as well as quite rare)... but, I guess I have to echo Vince... I think it should be an EK2. The Bavarian LSM is certainly a WW1 era type? I would be really surprised to find that medal awarded to a Bavarian... when would it have been given? For which conflict?

Sorry, obscure enough of a piece that I have never even heard of it being awarded on a white-black ribbon!

[Guest Rick Research]

True enough-- in the 20th century.

Sascha has a photo posted somewhere of a (if I remember correctly) Württemberg NCO with one, 1890s... and just as a sort of "can't think what to give somebody" award-- very very weird.

The M1913 XII (backwards) was only authorized in that year, but many a retiree from the IX and then XV days who had served 12 years decided they were entitled to this grade.

Possible for some old retired (pre-1905-- no Luitpold Jubilee Medal) Sergeant--

but then one never knows about hook-back bars without a photo of the same bar being worn by the recipient.

This would not have been a World War award.

[CRBeery]

Don't think I did not consider the EK2, and we all know without a photo or the documents there will never be 100% proof. I looked at the medals and the wear matches. The LS looks like it was gilted on the front and nearly normal on the reverse. The KvM is near perfect on the front and shows a little wear to the backside. They match in condition.

I do not think a dealer would take an EK2 off of a bar and replace it with the KvM (which I say is real) and then mark it up for profit and sell it to me for $90. It makes more sense that he simply got this in a batch of medals and sold it on not knowing or caring what he had. He did not even spend enough time on it to get the LS years right. Now if this were on a dealers page that worked with Imperial items for $400 I would be more skeptical. Maybe I am foolish. For the price I could not lose and I really do believe that this is the way the bar was made. The pin no longer opens so I am leaving it this way and I will treasure it even if you do not like it. This time I have faith.

Here is the old thread with the photo Rick mentioned:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=18786&view=&hl=krieger&fromsearch=1

Edited September 22, 2009 by CRBeery

[Stogieman]

No, I understand that scenario and discount it. I'm sure he sold it just the way he bought it... but that doesn't make it right. The biggest reason I discount it is the construction of the bar tells me 1914 on..... Not pre-1900 and then changed to reflect new style statements... We are talking about a Bavarian here! I would say the EK2 makes the bar correct. try hanging one on and see how the Bav LSM lines up.

Irrespective..... I would have cheerfully bought the KVM for more than a C-Note in a flash. that medal falls into the "I don't care what Nimmergut says, I'll take every one you can bring me at book value, every day of the week" category!

[Wild Card]

Can you explain why you are convinced this is a non-combat Krieger Verdienst, and not a non-combat EK2?

I considered the same possibility, but I do not think that this would have been the case. Keep in mind that the

KvM is only 25 mm across while an EK would be around 42 mm.

An EK mounted on this bar with the suspension hooks positioned as they are would considerably overlap the

LSM. Now notice how the NC ribbon, compared to the LSM ribbon is rather crunched together. If it was the

same distance across, the hooks would be further apart, thus better accommodating a larger decoration such

as an EK.

Just an opinion.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Stogieman]

Yes, but normally on a bar of this type we do see an overlap??

[Guest Rick Research]

Without documentation, all is mere speculation...

but I think in this case it is more likely that an ancient retired NCO who was an Unterförster or any of the other types of "weird" non-Prussian people who might have gottten a KVM on white-black ribbon in the late 19th century would be wearing the "only 2 he got" circa 1915 than that a retired Bavarian NCO (no Luitpold Jubilee, so again my point about PRE-1905 retirement) would have gotten a Prussian noncombatant Iron Cross in the World War rather than a Ludwig Cross.

Personally, in 40 years of collecting, I have never encountered ANY medal bar for a German with a KVM--

which rather points to just exactly how truly weird this combination is--

and yet LESS weird, in my experience, than an Iron Cross would be on that ribbon here.

Would be very very very happy, I would, to have snarfled up this duo at a show if it fell into my paws. :cheers:

[VtwinVince]

I'm not convinced.

[saschaw]

it is more likely that an ancient retired NCO who was an Unterförster or any of the other types of "weird" non-Prussian people who might have gottten a KVM on white-black ribbon in the late 19th century

"Weird"? They were given to non-Prussian EMs and NCOs all the time, to non-Prussian but German ones I assume up to 1914.

Very nice bar without any problems in the combination. A EK2w to a Bavarian who got nothing from Bavaria(!) would look stranger. ;)

[saschaw]

an ancient retired NCO who was an Unterförster or any of the other types of "weird" non-Prussian people who might have gottten a KVM on white-black ribbon in the late 19th century

Me again with this... from what I know and red at HuS', it was given to (1888-1914 era)

1. non-Prussian soldiers and

2. "weird" Prussians like Unterförster.

Have not yet seen one example for #2 and don't think and have neither seen something to suggests a non-Prussian weird job.

[Wild Card]

Yes, but normally on a bar of this type we do see an overlap??

Agreed, yes we do.

I was just pointing out that it appeared that the EKE ribbon appears to be, as I said, “crunched” together; which causes it to show less lateral surface.

What I did not mention is that, being to the left, the EKE ribbon is dominant, and as such, I would expect that if they are meant to be purposely unequal, the EKE ribbon would be the wider of the two.

If the EKE ribbon was equal in width with the LSD ribbon, I think that there would still be plenty of overlap with an EKE mounted instead of the KvM.

[CRBeery]

Gentlemen,

First of all I thank you all for the discussion on this bar - I learned a few things which is why I am here. I have been thinking about this and one point by Wild Card seemed to me very interesting, the amount of ribbon above each medal matches the medal width. While looking at this I noticed something odd. The black stripe is very narrow. I measured four mounted NC EK2's and two had 4.5mm black stripes and two had 5mm black stripes. The black stripe on the ribbon over the KvM is 4mm or maybe a bit under. With the few of these awards that would have been awarded is there a chance someone made a different ribbon with a thinner stripe? Please measure the stripes on your mounted NC EK2's and see what you get. I looked in the few books that I have and found no reference to widths other than overall ribbon width. Maybe with this effort we can learn something else.

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

First of all I thank you all for the discussion on this bar - I learned a few things which is why I am here. I have been thinking about this and one point by Wild Card seemed to me very interesting, the amount of ribbon above each medal matches the medal width. While looking at this I noticed something odd. The black stripe is very narrow. I measured four mounted NC EK2's and two had 4.5mm black stripes and two had 5mm black stripes. The black stripe on the ribbon over the KvM is 4mm or maybe a bit under. With the few of these awards that would have been awarded is there a chance someone made a different ribbon with a thinner stripe? Please measure the stripes on your mounted NC EK2's and see what you get. I looked in the few books that I have and found no reference to widths other than overall ribbon width. Maybe with this effort we can learn something else.

Hey there CRBeery, you have a good set of eyes and shame on me for not checking this out further.

Let’s take a look at Hessenthal/Schreiber. Simply put, the ribbon for the NC EK is 30 mm wide and

the black stripes are 5 mm. The ribbon for the KVM is 26 mm wide and the black stripes are 4 mm.

So, there you are.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[CRBeery]

Thanks mate! That is all I need to be convinced. Next time we see each other I will buy the first beverage. The same for the rest of you! :cheers:

[Wild Card]

Thanks mate! That is all I need to be convinced. Next time we see each other I will buy the first beverage. The same for the rest of you!

:cheers: