I really need a new reference!

[TacHel]

No, not a joke... Is there a reference that would give me more info? I have nearly 100 German Imperial awards in my collection, I can identify well over 90% of all imperial awards... But identifying them isn't enough!

I already have 5 or 6 very good reference books, some from Germany from the 30s and 40s. They show the awards, they talk about the makers, the ribbons but NONE explain in detail the award criteria or who they were bestowed to! In recent threads I've read from Rick and others mention "this was usually awarded to senior NCOs" or "to junior officers"... Where does one find such info?

Is there a book out there somewhere with that king of information? If not, is anybody planning on writing one? I don't care if it's in English, in French, in German...

[Guest Rick Research]

:Cat-Scratch:

Alas no. You just have to have started very young and filled your house with decades of very old books AND... hang out here with the grumpy old specialists! :whistle:

[TacHel]

So I have to give up my life as I know it? My job? My wife? Personal hygiene? The lot?

[Guest Darrell]

Unfortunately Rick's old dusty Owl knows more by Osmosis that most of us Mortals will ever learn :catjava:

[HeikoGrusdat]

So I have to give up my life as I know it? My job? My wife? Personal hygiene? The lot?

Not at all.............. keep the job , you will need a lot of money for the books and the other sources.... :catjava:

[Paul C]

Do you read German? The Hessenthal and Schrieber book may help. Do others agree?

[Deruelle]

Hi,

The best books are from Jörg Nimmergut. great information with size, weight, numbers of awards etc...

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

Osmosis is pretty much accurate.

So many things enter into this...

reading things like the Personalnachrichten reveals which class of Wuzzit a Feldhilfsarzt got rather than a Feldunterarzt;

endless decades submerged in Rank Lists imprints the minutiae of actual practice for officers awards;

rolls of many-classed awards splits remaining hairs very nicely indeed (Lippe-Detmold's even allow sorting out by AGE/seniority in equal status but different classes of awards);

peering at thousands of photographs, hundreds of award documents...

and on and on--

it accretes like the layers of a pearl--and often because of the same irritation at not knowing something arcane and obscure and going to frankly crazy lengths to find out "why."

We all START out as Sméagol... but often END up as Gollum.... "fading" away, mumbling, fingers worn away by typing. :whistle:

[TacHel]

Do you read German? The Hessenthal and Schrieber book may help. Do others agree?

I do read German and already have this book... Although a great reference, it does not contain the info I am lacking...:(

[TacHel]

Osmosis is pretty much accurate.

So many things enter into this...

reading things like the Personalnachrichten reveals which class of Wuzzit a Feldhilfsarzt got rather than a Feldunterarzt;

endless decades submerged in Rank Lists imprints the minutiae of actual practice for officers awards;

rolls of many-classed awards splits remaining hairs very nicely indeed (Lippe-Detmold's even allow sorting out by AGE/seniority in equal status but different classes of awards);

peering at thousands of photographs, hundreds of award documents...

and on and on--

it accretes like the layers of a pearl--and often because of the same irritation at not knowing something arcane and obscure and going to frankly crazy lengths to find out "why."

We all START out as Sméagol... but often END up as Gollum.... "fading" away, mumbling, fingers worn away by typing.

Rick, I honestly think you must leave (or rather sell) your knowledge to posterity... What happens if you get hit by a bus tomorrow? Or get hit in the back of the head by an old Soviet satellite? All of that knowledge will be lost... The countless hours of research, thousands of paper cuts and TV dinners... Rolls are nice, but simply raw data. A book actually explaining award criteria with links between rank/seniority and award class would be invaluable! It would probably be the first such book ever printed and would be translated and distributed World wide! Think of the fame and money! Think of how many other books you could buy! You could probably afford to hire a typist! Nerdy women with thick glasses, hair nets and bucked teeth all over you! You might actually get to unseal your front door (if you can find it) and venture out into the sunlight once again!

Food for thought...

[Komtur]

Hi,

The best books are from Jörg Nimmergut. great information with size, weight, numbers of awards etc...

Christophe

A huge work but with lots of mistakes. In that case unfortunately nomen est omen

I use this book often too, because it gives a good overview. But you always have to be carefull with its informations.

Regards, Komtur.

[Paul C]

I have been trying for years to get Herr Rickie to do a book. He would rather slave away on award rolls and work his fingers to the numb and his eyes to dust. :banger:

[Claudio]

Hi Paul,

I think your idea (proposal to Rick) is great! I would love also to contribute to it, as also many of us collector friends, I suppose....

Ciao,

Claudio

[Guest Rick Research]

SOMEBODY "has" to do the never published Rolls and that would alas and alack be those of us who HAVE the wretched things.

When what we are laboriously transforming into anyone-can-read, alphabetized, cross-indexed, data-added treasures come from thousands of pages that all look exactly (or worse ) like THIS

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=41508&view=findpost&p=388927

then both the TIME and "inclination" elements become rather obvious:

Ain't noooooooooooooooooooooooobody else GOING to do Rolls but our little handful of Crazy Research Persons. Our gift to the world, after 6 months' or a year's inter-continental group effort per volume is to make "instant" findings available that would otherwise have taken us hours or days of hunting through this stuff-- and which nobody else had access to.

The fundamental problem is that there is no MONEY in this. Rationally, all our efforts are clinically insane-- I literally put in a week's work for every dollar I have quote unquote made. Mister Lincoln freed THOSE slaves but NOT us. Aside from the terrifyingly idiotic amount of time we expend, the costs up front to produce the resulting HIGHLY "non-commercial" books (still have two sets of 2008's Rolls, all there are left in America del Norte, dollah she go dowwwwwwn Eurine she go upppppppppp ) mean it is POINTLESS to print runs of

over 50 books.

Books that collectors unborn will be fighting over (think the O'Connor volumes) in mere years (Centennial 1914-2014 ) from now

but which we who DID them can't "unload" for our OWN quote unquote profit.

"Non profit" sure sounds nice when it's somebody ELSE.

The other thing is, those of us slaving away on the award Rolls CAN do them but to produce books on awards... requires those awards.

Can't have a "this class and that grade" book without SHOWING them.

I don't HAVE anything but a basic, low level THINGS collection, accreted as pennies were spare at the tail end of when things were quote unquote cheap. The Super Collections are, simply, GONE.

Yes, there are still specialists with very high end stuff indeed.

But a PICTURE book requires professional photography, consistent across globally spaced top end collections to illustrate from

as well as time and effort and

that ol' debbil Bottom Line AGAIN, folks:

cash-up-front.

Wish someone can do it. Hope someone will do it.

But it won't be me/us because it can't be me/us.

:beer:

Edited January 24, 2010 by Rick Research

[Ulsterman]

You and me both Paul, you and me both.

The medal bars book IMHO was mostly Ricks' intellectually.... or information that'd been realized via discussions on the WAF.

I'd be happy with an annotated translation of Hessenthal and Schreiber and if SOMEONE sold it ON CD!!!! There'd be no printing costs.

hint hint

[Les]

I'd be happy with an annotated translation of Hessenthal and Schreiber and if SOMEONE sold it ON CD!!!! There'd be no printing costs.

hint hint

There is that little old matter of copyright laws. If I recall correctly, it was published in 1940. Love it or hate it, the German (and European) laws state copyright expires seventy years after the death of the authour(s).

Edited January 26, 2010 by Les

[Ulsterman]

True, however in this case Hessenthal and Schreiber may fall under the legitimate war booty provision of law and the subsequent laws of the occupation forces which confiscated all objects in Germany designed to promote militarism and Nazism.

Also, the TRANSLATION of a work remains the intellectual property of the translator.

[Wild Card]

There is that little old matter of copyright laws. If I recall correctly, it was published in 1940. Love it or hate it, the German (and European) laws state copyright expires seventy years after the death of the authour(s).

This may be so. Nevertheless it was reprinted in England about ten years ago; but I do not know what legal implications or entanglements

may have been encountered in that project.

Yes, it was originally published in 1940.

[JBFloyd]

When the reprint was done in the UK, it was done with full knowledge that Dr. Kleitmann had claimed copyright of the original. However, Naval and Military Press apparently decided that the risk of problems with Kleitmann's heirs was minimal and pressed on without regard to copyright ownership.

[Les]

True, however in this case Hessenthal and Schreiber may fall under the legitimate war booty provision of law and the subsequent laws of the occupation forces which confiscated all objects in Germany designed to promote militarism and Nazism.

Also, the TRANSLATION of a work remains the intellectual property of the translator.

The idea of confiscation is aimed primarily at government or public entities, civic organizations, etc, not items belonging to individuals. If applied broadly to properties owned by -everyone-, then veterans could have their medals and all relevant documents seized, etc.

Translations fall under the definition of being a derivative of the original work, and are also the intellectual property of the copyright holder unless permission is granted to the translator. Translating and (re)publishing a derivative work does run the risk of being a copyright infringement.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Les

[Paul C]

I find it odd that someone jumps to defend "intellectual property" in this case when they know of another case of the violation "intellectual property" and do not provide the details. How very odd.

As to Hessenthal and Schrieber being on CD I think this has been done. :whistle:

[Les]

I find it odd that someone jumps to defend "intellectual property" in this case when they know of another case of the violation "intellectual property" and do not provide the details. How very odd.

As to Hessenthal and Schrieber being on CD I think this has been done.

I find it odd that you're still beating that drum. What I was doing is pointing out what the law is, nothing more.

I said in that deleted thread you're referring to Paul, I was offered a copy by someone who said he could get a copy if I wanted it. I didn't. The person who offered to get a copy for me wasn't the one making them, and by relying on "he said he could get it from someone who knew someone" that's the definition of hearsay and not admissible in court. Why pass on information that is nothing more than hearsay, and get myself bound up in a lawsuit relying on a chain of "he saids" that wouldn't go anywhere.

[PKeating]

I think it was no more than a rumour that someone was making and distributing copies of Paul C's CDs. There again, if someone assumes the right to 'digitize' - like Sergey Brin and his accomplices - anything he feels might be of use to the collecting community then why shouldn't anyone be able to make copies of those CDs and, perhaps, distribute them FOC to anyone who sends a stamped addressed envelope? Surely, what is sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander? Copy...and be copied... After all, thanks to the US court system and Google's strongarm tactics, copyright law is just about to be completely undermined so all of these discussions will be redundant.

PK

Edited January 27, 2010 by PKeating

[Ulsterman]

The idea of confiscation is aimed primarily at government or public entities, civic organizations, etc, not items belonging to individuals. If applied broadly to properties owned by -everyone-, then veterans could have their medals and all relevant documents seized, etc.

And they were too!

Translations fall under the definition of being a derivative of the original work, and are also the intellectual property of the copyright holder unless permission is granted to the translator. Translating and (re)publishing a derivative work does run the risk of being a copyright infringement.

Depends upon the work. Translations of Harry Potter for example, abound in China, yet she can collect royalties only on the official and authorized publication.

[W McSwiggan]

Not a book out there – would love one myself or even to write one but I do not have the references to do so in a manner befitting the subject.

Considering a primer to lay out what I’ve learned over the years with the tutelage of Rick Research but the time to get it right is a problem.

That said – in case you are unaware there are two web-sites that are excellent as sources of English language information (not all you request unfortunately).

One is Dave Danner’s at: http://home.att.net/~david.danner/militaria/states.htm

The other is Medalnet’s (alias Andreas M. Schulze Ising) at: http://www.medalnet.net/

Good luck.