Bavaria What do you know about Bavarian MVOs and MVKs

[Bob Hunter]

Rick, how much do you think having a medal bar tied down tight minimized damage like this or is it not a factor?

[Stogieman]

I think it depends on the style of mounting. Some bars are wrapped so tight nothing moves, so damage would only occur if dropped. Other bars are loosely wrapped, or "clip-on" style and the awards clink together constantly. Enamel work is really glass (colored) so clinking is never a good idea. Sometimes you'll find these with (period) tie-downs on not just the suspension rings, but the ?se at the top of the award and even around the top "arm" of the decoration. So at least some of these guys were aware of the (potential) damage that could happen to these simply by being worn and took steps to prevent it.

A sad but real occurance to 60-100 year old pieces. When the groups are mounted, I never worry about damages.... the bar is an intact piece of history so (for me) even a bar chipped to heck has real value and perspective.

One of the first (type 1) BMVK's I had (enameled/no flames) was on a small medal bar and almost all the enamel was damaged and or chipped.... I sold the bar in Germany at auction and it fetched over 1200- even trashed. So sometimes, a piece is so rare, damages don't impede the value in the least!

[Chris Boonzaier]

Not really my field, but I needed to take something in trade for my stuff and got this.....

[Chris Boonzaier]

Really well made indeed!

[Chris Boonzaier]

I guess the guy must have been a doctor?

Can anyone recognise the maker? The bar is so tightly sewn together that I cant see any marks on the cross

[Christophe]

I guess the guy must have been a doctor?

(...)

Hi Chris,

Can a real novice in "Imperial" ask a question? Why a doctor? Is it link to the color of the backing?

Many thanks in advance.

Cheers.

Ch.

[Chris Boonzaier]

You are asking the wrong guy, I am only an Imperial EK doc guy :-(

I initially thought the middle one was a red cross thingy :-((

OK,no doctor then.

[Daniel Murphy]

Chris,

That is one super bar. I see why you are saying doctor, the War Aid Cross which is mainly given to those in a noncombattant role. Supposedly von Hindenburg was the first recipient of it though. Just a guess really but I would say junior officer since there are no pre war orders. A doctor would be in a position to receive combattant and non-combattant awards if he saw service near the front, as good a guess as any.

Christophe,

Sometimes the color of the backing is related. Red=Infantry, black or navy blue=Naval, etc. The backing color on this one does look like one color of a Prussian medical officers litzen, it could also be naval. I will let one of the experts tackle it for a definite answer.

Dan Murphy

Edited December 18, 2005 by Daniel Murphy

[Christophe]

You are asking the wrong guy, I am only an Imperial EK doc guy :-(

I initially thought the middle one was a red cross thingy :-((

OK,no doctor then.

Disappointed, as I thought I could learn something... Any reason for this dark blue backing ?

Ch.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

it must be a 1930s backing. Maybe he was in the Feuerwehr, or veterans association?

[David Gregory]

The blue backing might also indicate service with the navy.

[Stogieman]

Super bar...... always a possibility he was wounded out and then worked at home to support the war effort because he just couldn't quit......

[Christophe]

Chris,

That is one super bar. I see why you are saying doctor, the War Aid Cross which is mainly given to those in a noncombattant role. Supposedly von Hindenburg was the first recipient of it though. Just a guess really but I would say junior officer since there are no pre war orders. A doctor would be in a position to receive combattant and non-combattant awards if he saw service near the front, as good a guess as any.

Christophe,

Sometimes the color of the backing is related. Red=Infantry, black or navy blue=Naval, etc. The backing color on this one does look like one color of a Prussian medical officers litzen, it could also be naval. I will let one of the experts tackle it for a definite answer.

Dan Murphy

Thanks Dan,

Interesting.

Ch.

[Chris Boonzaier]

compare to one from the wifes family..

[Chris Boonzaier]

Above is the new one

[Chris Boonzaier]

above, front one from the family, back one from show today..

[Chris Boonzaier]

aa

[Stogieman]

Oh yeah........ looks like real gold centers on both of those, so that makes the Bar one an earlier award....

[Guest Rick Research]

Looks like a Jakob Leser BMV4X, style of the flames (nice touch the way the one at 5 o'clock is sewn down to prevent shifting, BTW), thin sword grips, and pierced GOLD crown... my favorite maker/style!

[attachmentid=19520]

Now, the blue backing is simply a bavarian preference, often found in a paler color or silk, sort of an alternative to the generic red backing.

This is a GOLD centered BMV4X, so that was awarded during the first half of the war. Yet there is no Luitpold Jubilee medal, so this guy was not commissioned by early 1912. Would have joined up no earlier than 1912, been a Leutnant 1914, and ended the war as an Oberleutnant OR he was a Reserve or Landwehr officer who was still a dR/dL candidate in 1912, so roughly the same rank spread. The former type would have been born circa 1893, and the latter say 1888 or so.

The Prussian War Effort Cross does suggest something rear area. If there were a Luitpold Jubilee and some form of Baarian long service for enlisted men on here, I'd have suspected somebody like a Feuerwerks or Zeug officer-- that sort of technical "up from the ranks" specialist. Since there is not, I'd still suspect sometbody more along the lines of a pioneer or transport (railways, motor vehicle...) type officer than anyone medical, with a mixture of frontline and Etappen service.

It's a dazzling minty bar in pristine condition as a medal bar should be.

[Chris Boonzaier]

What i notice on it is....

On the family medal the centre "L" seems to be gold but the writing and belt are a different metal. there is a gold coulered disk, then they have the enamle (black and white) put on it, then the crown and L is a seperate piece.

On todays piece they seem to have a round gold disk with white enamle (the crown and L are PART OF the disk), it is cut through and the black background is seperate.

best

Chris

[Chris Boonzaier]

Ricks one is different again, he has the crown and L as a seperate piece, it looks like the crown and L are gold and the writing and belt vergoldet, wheras the one I have from today has the crown/L, writing and belt as a single piece of what looks liek gold.

best

chris

[Guest Rick Research]

Nope. Your loose one is silver gilt. No mistaking the pure joyous flash of gold on the earlier models. The construction of the "hubcaps" and separate L and lion are the same on all MVOs, with style differences between the makers.

If you have to think about what color the L or lion is, it's gilt. Gold Leser lion:

[attachmentid=19525]

[Chris Boonzaier]

Just wait till my computer comes back from the shop and I can scan again... Ill show you mine if you show mw yours ;-)

[Guest Rick Research]

Your loose one appears to be a late war Gebr?der Hemmerle to me-- here's my G.H. gilt centers for comparison (flames, hilts, lower arm of reverse etc)

[attachmentid=19528][attachmentid=19526]

[attachmentid=19527]

[Ed_Haynes]

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However frustrating this technolgy may be, when you see one of these transcontinental conversations and information exchanges take place, it rather renews one's faith in the Evil Technology. It is amazing what it allows us to do . . . !!

</OFFTOPIC>

Edited December 18, 2005 by Ed_Haynes