Bavaria What do you know about Bavarian MVOs and MVKs

[Marcus66]

14 hours ago, BlackcowboyBS said:

Post war related to imperial medals allways means between wwI and wwII. 

Thanks so much.  

 

Marcus

[saschaw]

Now that we seem to know everything about them, it's time to brag with something I had and sold some years ago: One of the rarest, yet plainest of all Bavarian awards: The pre-WW1 MVK 3rd class with crown. Of 15 crosses ever awarded on the peace time ribbon, all in 1913/14, this is the only known example so far!

 

 

Unfortunately, the Rhineland mid-1930s tailor mounted it with a standard war ribbon, which makes zero sense. There were some more such crosses awarded on the war merit ribbon in 1914/15, but these are very rare as well, with a known 73 awards. From mid-1915 on, adding swords was allowed for these, by the way.

[BlackcowboyBS]

a nice bar! 

[laurentius]

Here we have two pieces by Gebrüders Hemmerle of Munich. On the left we have an early piece with gold medaillon and on the right is a late piece with silver medaillon. The lower arm has a smaller patch of enamel on the backside for protection.

Edited October 10, 2021 by laurentius

[spolei]

4 hours ago, laurentius said:

Here we have two pieces by Gebrüders Hemmerle of Munich. On the left we have an early piece with gold medaillon and on the right is a late piece with silver medaillon. The lower arm has a smaller patch of enamel on the backside for protection.

Hello, the early piece is very fine. It would be interesting to see if it's marked 980 or 950, but through the fixation you won't be able to see it

[laurentius]

11 hours ago, spolei said:

950

It's 950 I believe, I checked it once.

 

I was never aware that BMVO's were also made in 980 silver, was that common?

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[spolei]

5 hours ago, laurentius said:

It's 950 I believe, I checked it once.

 

I was never aware that BMVO's were also made in 980 silver, was that common?

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

The MVO's with 980 are pre-WW1 productions. Most are decorations without swords. The awarding for the colonies are with swords. Many pieces were then retrofitted with swords for WW1. The MVO production of the WW1 was marked with 950.

[waldo]

Here we have two pieces by Gebrüders Hemmerle of Munich. On the left we have an early piece with gold medaillon and on the right is a late piece with silver medaillon. The lower arm has a smaller patch of enamel on the backside for protection.

 

Servus Laurentius,

 

That is not right. The widened lower edge is intended to indicate that all 
golden parts are only gold-plated. The same widened rim can also be found 
on MVKs 1st class, among others. These pieces were all made from 1917 onwards.

Walter

 

[laurentius]

2 hours ago, waldo said:

The widened lower edge is intended to indicate that all golden parts are only gold-plated.

Really? Very interesting. I had been told that the wider rim had been adopted at the same time as the switch from gold to silver happened because of complaints of enamel damage by recipients. You learn something everyday, thank you for your comment.

Edited October 11, 2021 by laurentius

[waldo]

As an example here two MVK 1 class with swords from Leser, on the 
left with a gold medallion and on the right with a gold-plated 
medallion.
 
Visible at the lower, wider edge of the cross arm. As you can see, 
an MVK also has this feature, which has no enamelled cross arms 
and therefore nothing can be damaged.

Many greetings
Walter

Edited October 11, 2021 by waldo

[v.Perlet]

Hello gents,

 

can some of you help me on this MVK 2nd Klasse displayed on a 5 medal clasp

Unlike most of my other medals I had kept this one in a box for maybe 20 years and unearthed it yesterday.

What kind of shocked me was the appearance of the coating - more like glossy white then the usual silver appearance I am used to seeing on my other MVK 2Kl.

Is there something fundamentally wrong with this cross - or is it one of the Alpaka=silver plated versions, or some crude alloy core with whatever silver coating?

Also any ideas to the manufacturer?

 

Also pictured is a 2nd Klasse with crown from my cabinet (I think it's a Leser) no markings visible that displays the to me familiar silver appearance. 

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited February 1, 2022 by v.Perlet

[waldo]

Hello vPerlet,

I can't find any discrepancies in the 2nd class. I can't tell 
you the materials though. In the 2nd class Krone X I would assume 
Deschler or Hemmerle. No Leser. Maybe someone else can give 
better information.

[spolei]

Hello,
the second class is a Weiss from the late period of the war. The MVK crown X is a Deschler.
The crosses were made of non-ferrous metal and plated with copper, silver or gold, depending on the class.
Silver pieces are pre-war pieces of the 2nd form.
 

[v.Perlet]

36 minutes ago, spolei said:

Hello,
the second class is a Weiss from the late period of the war. The MVK crown X is a Deschler.
The crosses were made of non-ferrous metal and plated with copper, silver or gold, depending on the class.
Silver pieces are pre-war pieces of the 2nd form.
 

Servus Walter, Hello spolei

 

Phuuu.... relieved, that surface appearance really made me nervous.

Thanks a lot for your time and input - Deschler, okay I can live with that?, the pre-war part I assumed as well.

What makes you say or know that the 2.Kl on the ribbon clasp is from Weis? any hints you could forward me?

 

Thanks again and a better close up from the 2.Kl - ribbon clasp

 

Regards

v.Perlet

 

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by v.Perlet

[spolei]

Hello, unfortunately your picture is blurred in the detail of the belt buckle. On the late pieces you can occasionally see a slightly brownish coating on the white enamel. Some medals were also impregnated with zapon varnish, which flakes off over time. Or do you mean the discoloration below the belt buckle? It comes from the glue in the locket.

Edited February 1, 2022 by spolei

[v.Perlet]

38 minutes ago, spolei said:

....... Some medals were also impregnated with zapon varnish, which flakes off over time.

yes, this is obviously what got me worried.

Any hints as to what identifies my KVK 2Kl. on the ribbon bar to be from manufacturer Weis?

Okay one more photo - hope this one is better.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[spolei]

Hello, the MVK is my specialty. Each of the 5 manufacturers in the award period has its own characteristics such as clasps, swords, front and back medallions. Due to the long war, there were always new variants. The lower classes were made in quantity by medal makers like Deschler. Lauer only delivered to the order's chancellery until 1916. These two manufacturers also only made second and third class MVK. Weiss, Hemmerle and Leser were court jewelers. Your Weiss MVK should have WCo hallmarked on the back of the swords.In the medallion there is a chip to the right of the L

Edited February 1, 2022 by spolei

[v.Perlet]

Hello spolei,

 

None of my MVK's are marked on the swords - only some on the Agraffe.

 

The Weis you mentioned does not have any markings. There is no chip on the medallion - it's just a reflection.

The surface is fine as you can see on the photo before.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[spolei]

The marking is somewhat hidden on the back.

[v.Perlet]

Hello spolei,

 

I am aware as to where to look. But unfortunately only one MVK 1.KL X, displays the manufacturer on the Agraffe - and even that one isn't easy to spot. See my MVK 2nd Kl X and sword I posted - nothing. Therefore until you mentioned this issue in your previous post and showed me the above photo, I didn't even know that swords on a MVK were marked at all - thanks, very appreciated.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[waldo]

Servus,

 

jetzt sage ich es mal auf Deutsch. Du solltest Dich erstmal intensiv mit der Thematik vertraut machen, denn Andreas und ich geben uns ja Mühe. Blos wenn Du unsere Aussagen anzweifelst und Thesen aufstellst, die nicht stimmen, musst Du Dir erstmal die Grundlagen aneignen. Dabei kann ich Dir nur die Beiträge in den Phaleristischen Forschungen oder im Thementeil bis 1918 im SDA wärmstens empfehlen. Wenn nicht, heißt es halt für Dich, "Das Rad neu erfinden" bzw. Learning bei doing, also kaufen, anschauen, sammeln und dabei lernen. Doch dass kann auch viel Lehrgeld kosten, wenn es sich um Fälschungen handelt.

 

Viele Grüße

Walter

Edited February 1, 2022 by waldo

[v.Perlet]

11 hours ago, waldo said:

Servus,

 

 Blos wenn Du unsere Aussagen anzweifelst und Thesen aufstellst, die nicht stimmen, musst Du Dir erstmal die Grundlagen aneignen.

 

Servus Walter,

 

hm..??, also ich zweifle eure Aussagen ueberhaupt nicht an - ich hatte nur gesagt dass von allen meinen MVK's leider nur eines eine Punzierung aufweist - und zwar auf der Agraffe. Mittlerweile habe ich noch ein zweites Stueck gefunden, ein MVK X mit Krone Kl.3 ebenfalls mit GH auf der Agraffe. Ich bin mir auch nicht bewusst darueber dass ich hier irgendwelche Thesen aufstelle.

 

Gruss

Andreas

Edited February 2, 2022 by v.Perlet

[waldo]

Ich würde mal sagen, dass die meisten MVKs eine Herstellermarkierung haben. Z.B. haben die meisten Deschler ein großes D auf den Schwertern. Weiss hat meistens ein WCo. etwas versteckt auf den Schwertern, Hemmerle oft ein GH auf der Agraffe. Nur von Lauer kenne ich keine Kennzeichnung ebenso von Leser auf den MVKs.

Edited February 2, 2022 by waldo

[spolei]

Nicht zu vergessen, das verfeilte GH900 bei manchen Hemmerle Schwertern. Rührt daher,
dass die Formen der MVO-Schwerter verwendet wurden, die mit dem Silbergehalt markiert waren.
Für die niederen Klassen musste diese Markierung weg und wurde so gut es ging ausgefeilt.
 

[landsknechte]

I stumbled across this little oddity, and had to scoop it up.  I assume it's an unfinished mini version of a MVO.  Has anyone seen anything like this before?