Bulgaria Bulgarian Order of St Alexander -Two Variatians?

[Igor Ostapenko]

Quote

Hi Graf, 

yes, I see your pictures, but if you can post new photos - great !!! 

 

I have few orders from Osipov and few from Wondra ( Darmstadt ) 

and my new toy - GC from Scheid  

[Graf]

Hi Igor,

 

Congrats.

 

If you manage to get such rare "birds" during this crazy times with almost all countries in some form of blockades That is an achievement

Your collection of early St Alexander Order is getting very nice

 

This is from a friend collection GC  Set from Sheild

 

I just found this pictures in my files with the  early French model and a bit later Officer also French made

You can see the difference

 

Enjoy it as I did

 

Graf

 

 

 

 

 

[Igor Ostapenko]

Hi Graf, 

Thank you for pictures ! 
may be you can post good pictures of your ubergross St. Alexander IV Class from Battenberg period ?! 
 

Your friend have very nice collection, but I remember GC with swords over cross and don’t like this set. 
Crown with swords not from GC, I think from neck order - 2nd or 3rd class 

[Graf]

Hi Igor

You are right About the GC with the swords above the cross  Th Cross badge is not GC size it is , as you suggest 2nd/3rd Class one.

I have seen few such Sets that  have been "mix and match ". Even in The  Museum  of Military History in Sofia they have few of those Sets on display.

Even ion the picture you listed of the GC Set the Sash is from 1st Class

Do you mean this one

 

Graf

 

 

[Igor Ostapenko]

Yes, this one ? 

May be you can make best quality pictures ? ?

[Graf]

Hi  Igor,

 

I got the Lemaitre Knight cross

This one has a French  mark "boar head' for silver.

The Officer is also French and also marked with "boar head" It look exactly the same as per the drawing on Lemaitre Catalogue

I took picture next to each other, so you can compare Lemaitre one is a bit smaller by around 1mm in all dimensions

The arms on the side do not taper as much as the arms of the Officer Class

You can see also difference in the central medallions 

Interestingly This Knight cross is not as thick as the Officer cross you have ??11

Also i took, I hope better pictures of the Russian made cross It is not marked, however it is gilded silver

It looks like converted Commander into Officer Class. I do not know when this had happened

Is it purposely  converted before it was awarded or in a later stage. One is for sure the ribbon loop and the cross show the same age. which means it is not a recent conversion

 

regard

 

Graf

[Igor Ostapenko]

Hi Graf,

Thank you for pictures !!! 

Hier few pictures of officers with St. Alexander order IV class , see please size of cross 

[Igor Ostapenko]

Order 3rd class with box and document sold in France. 
1906 y. 
Bad picture , but Nice crown  

[Graf]

Hi Igor,

 

It is nice however the Document is for the princely Model

This Cross is with Kings Crown i  suspect that it was replaced later on if the original was lost

 

Here is similar Document with 3rd Class The Document dates earlier

[Igor Ostapenko]

Hi Peter, 

for 1906 y. correct crown, this type was in use before 1908 

off top 

( but very nice Item ) 

[Graf]

Hi Igor,

We have discussed this one.

The crowns are not very relevant The literature and the books are only for general information and Guide

We have seen awards with crowns and Award Documents or boxes that do not much the books, however if there  is strong provenance  That whats matter

 

Enjoy this French made 1st Class Princely Type

 

Best

 

Graf

[Igor Ostapenko]

Great !!! 
very interesting and rare order !!! 
congratulation ?

[V.Vazov]

Hello Gentlemen,

 

I’d like to contribute to the topic with this 3rd class princely Rothe cross, for which I am looking for a case. If anyone have a spare one, please send me a message.

 

And a question. How do we distinguish an early Rothe princely beast star from a later Rothe one?

 

Many thanks,

Vazov

[Graf]

Hi Igor,

 

Look this St Alexander from the medal bar  They used similar cross as one I showed you in the post  from 14-th of October 2020

[Igor Ostapenko]

21 hours ago, Graf said:

Hi Igor,

 

Look this St Alexander from the medal bar  They used similar cross as one I showed you in the post  from 14-th of October 2020

Yes, of course - big cross officers class ? 

[new world]

On 05/07/2021 at 05:06, Graf said:

Hi Igor,

 

Look this St Alexander from the medal bar  They used similar cross as one I showed you in the post  from 14-th of October 2020

Such a lovely medal bar! Do we know who it belonged to?

[Igor Ostapenko]

4 hours ago, new world said:

Such a lovely medal bar! Do we know who it belonged to?

I don’t know who it belonged to, but polish order Virtuti Militari awarding to romanian Major (av.) Ioan Peneș 

[new world]

On 07/07/2021 at 00:34, Igor Ostapenko said:

I don’t know who it belonged to, but polish order Virtuti Militari awarding to romanian Major (av.) Ioan Peneș 

Nice, he was a pilot. I am sure there were more than one awarding of this order to Romanians.

[Igor Ostapenko]

On 08/09/2019 at 15:19, new world said:

I recently saw this Serbian medal bar with strange St Alexander with swords. St Alexander is in wrong position, it looks like it's on the ribbon for Romanian order.

In addition, awards itself is quite unusual.

My guess is this is privately made order. 

 

 

 

 

You are right - bulgarian order not from this medals bar ( like order on romanian bar ) 

 

Now this cross in my collection , very rare russian production of Ivan Osipov 

Left - Wondra production ( from Darmstadt ) with early upgrade of Rothe - swords and medallion on reverse 

[Graf]

Hi Igor,

 

I noticed that you mentioned Ivan Osipov as maker of St Alexander Order

I came across with  information that another maker with those initials is known -Igor Ozeretskii , St Petersburg

In other sources it is said that this is unknown maker.

Other Russian makers also are mentioned such as S. Arndt , St Petersburg and Keibel , Moskow

Who are the main Russian makers of early models of  Bulgarian Orders ?

 

[Igor Ostapenko]

Hi Graf, 

 

Igor Ozeretskii - mistake from Bretzendorfer & Kuhn book . 
 

only Ivan Osipov make St. Alexander order . 
 https://ak-group.ru/forum/threads/zvjozdy-sv-aleksandra-izgotovlennye-i-o.19275/ 

 ( you can use Google translator from russian ) 

 

 Keibel made golden bravery orders 1st and 2nd class . 
 

Arndt was seller, not producer 

[Graf]

Hi Igor

 

Thank you for the reply and the information

 

Todor Petrov, in his book, also mentioned those Russian  Makers. Some authors  and Auction houses are quite smart they do not mention any makers names It is safe and smart

Perhaps you of being Russian and focused on the very early St Alexander models you have better knowledge then those authors

It is gray are not much information -very vague and general one

Even  some of the pictures in some of the books are not correct

For example only late Prince Dimitri Romanoff on page 70 showed the correct 1st Class Cross and Star

Both have the central medallions in gold and the letters " St Alexander" are 3D not flat

Especially the 1st Class Cross compared with the 2nd Class and 3rd Class Commander Crosses

 

Amazing box It is extremely rare...and 1st Class  This is the first i have ever seen in Russian.  Is it in your collection?

 

BTW Your collection of an early St Alexander orders is getting quite impressive Congrats

[Graf]

Hi Igor I read the information from the link

You are quite active on the forum.

It is good you are very  eager to get as much information as possible

Recently on Spink Auction they sold 1st Class Cross in Gold with missing crown

I also have sen 1st Class Cross with gold medallion in Gilded silver with the marks 84 and i assume the St Petersburg Mark  and  the Russian initials for Ivan Osipov

In the forum from the link you suggested that the 1st and 2nd Class stars are the same size 77-78 mm. I am not very convinced even you have information from the one of the Museums.

The 1st Cross Cross is 55 mm and the Commander crosses are 45 mm wide Why bother making the different sizes crosses and the same size Stars.

I have seen few of those Sets where either the Cross or the Star is not the correct size. Even in the Museum in Sofia

 

I have seen First Class Star sold on Auction and the size was 90 mm i will try to dig in my files

Even late Prince Dimitri Romanoff stated that the 1st Class Stars are 87-92 mm I assume he had access to many of those sets

However it is worth exploring this topic further

 

Best

 

[Graf]

Hi Igor ,

 

I looked at your point that only one size Star was made for both 1st Class and 2nd Class I have information from a person who is familiar with the Russian Orders and he stated that  The Russian Orders had only one size Star for both Classes. The assumption that because the 1st Model of the Order of St Alexander was made in Russia and they copied the Russian Model sounds reasonable. However i still we have to try to explore this lead.

 

BTW i found the sale where it was stated that the Star is 1st Class, however they did not specify the size. i am not sure I the came to the conclusion that it is 1st Class..or they knew that the size is the same and listed the Star as 1st Class to get a better price.

 

I looked again the late Prince Romanoff book He did not specify about the 1st model Star his description is general of all Models 1st Class Stars

Now we need to come across of more 1st Class Stars and somehow to obtain their size to make better conclusions.

 

Regards

 

Graf

[Igor Ostapenko]

On 12/07/2021 at 02:03, Graf said:

Hi Igor I read the information from the link

You are quite active on the forum.

It is good you are very  eager to get as much information as possible

Recently on Spink Auction they sold 1st Class Cross in Gold with missing crown

I also have sen 1st Class Cross with gold medallion in Gilded silver with the marks 84 and i assume the St Petersburg Mark  and  the Russian initials for Ivan Osipov

In the forum from the link you suggested that the 1st and 2nd Class stars are the same size 77-78 mm. I am not very convinced even you have information from the one of the Museums.

The 1st Cross Cross is 55 mm and the Commander crosses are 45 mm wide Why bother making the different sizes crosses and the same size Stars.

I have seen few of those Sets where either the Cross or the Star is not the correct size. Even in the Museum in Sofia

 

I have seen First Class Star sold on Auction and the size was 90 mm i will try to dig in my files

Even late Prince Dimitri Romanoff stated that the 1st Class Stars are 87-92 mm I assume he had access to many of those sets

However it is worth exploring this topic further

 

Best

 

Great Order !!! 
congratulations ! ? 

I very want some Item  

We must to open separate theme about Order of St. Alexander 1st class from Battenberg period …