Uncategorised Zyklon B head scratch.......

[Chris Boonzaier]

Some things just blow me away....

Like some idiot paying USD2700 for an empty tin on this auction.....

http://www.cgmauctio...ct-from-Hamburg

I think there is a major error in the description, I dont think Haber had anything to do with Zyklon B...

But as you can see here..... Millions and millions of tins of this were made, used for everything from Fumigating Trains from Mexico to the USA to delousing uniforms in the Army...

Before a Gas Chamber was ever created , hundreds of tons a year of this stuff were being prodiced for other purposes, from farming to industry....

So... before you shell out USD2700 for a tim that may have been used in Berlin to kill lice in BDM Panties.... ask your Buddy down in Texas....

"From 1929 onwards the U.S. used Zyklon B to disinfect the freight trains and clothes of Mexican immigrants entering the US.^[13] Farm Securities Administration photographer Marion Post Wolcott recorded the use of cyanide gas and Zyklon B by the Public Health Service at the New Orleans Quarantine Station during the 1930s"

if maybe THEY have an old tin in the barn somewhere.... we could become rich !!!!!!

There is no denying this was used for terrible, terrible purposes.... but lets say an average of 200 tons a year, thats probably about 400 000 tins of this a year (in 1943 it was 800 000 tins)... we are talking millions of tins.... 99% being used for the purpose they were originally made for....

The doctor who this came from, working in the camps AFTER the war would probably have had it delivered for delousing as well....

So the buyer of this tin for USD2700......

[christerd]

:cheeky:

Agree 100%

[Ulsterman]

well....." A (twisted/warped) fool and his money are soon parted".

Wow- I had no idea Herr Gottleib was now making money via auctions....this hobby really has some winners in it.

[ostprussenmann_new]

Chris

Honestly, why would someone even want to own something like this? Reminds me of the 1993 movie Falling Down with Michael Douglas and the crazy Army Surplus owner.

v/r

ostprussenmann

[Chris Boonzaier]

Even assuming this was found in a KZ in 1945 by an (american ?) doctor... there are docuumented tins like this found by US vets in Dachau... although Dachau never used its Gas Chamber. The Zyklon B at Dachau had been used for other legitimate purposes for the surrounding military barraks... like Lice etc....

So, you could start of a Dachau tin collection.... Zyklon B tin, footpowder Tin, Roofing sealant tin from Dachau etc. Etc.

[Hauptmann]

Chris

Honestly, why would someone even want to own something like this? Reminds me of the 1993 movie Falling Down with Michael Douglas and the crazy Army Surplus owner.

v/r

ostprussenmann

I totally agree with you Chris... creepy and other than a museum dedicated to the memory of the holocaust, either private or public, I see absolutely no reason why anyone would even want something like this or any of the other items connected to the camps.

Way back when I was getting into TR, my wife Kim had absolutely no problem with it with the exception of NO original SS or camp items and nothing with Hitler or his cronies displayed all over like pictures on the wall, etc. Believe you me, I had NO problem with that as I've no interest in that end of things... again other than the fact that we MUST NEVER FORGET what happened, why and NEVER let it happen again. Although sadly it has, via Stalin and the Soviet camps, the Khmer Rouge, etc. Not on the same assembly line basis instituted by the nazi's but that makes no difference. Innocent people were killed... more than we'll ever know.

But it takes all kinds I guess. Of course there are many who wonder why in the world anyone would even want anything at all used during the TR, or communist regimes, etc. Although I still have the interest I got rid of most of my TR stuff before we moved to ND and just after getting here. I downplay what I have left as alot of folks simply do not understand this type of collecting. Whereas few seem to have any problems with commie stuff. I just got so tired of all the negatives involved in TR. I NEVER showed any of it, or talked about it with anyone I thought would even be so much as slightly offended or put off. I did try to use it to teach about the holocaust. But it honestly just got so tiring that I was glad to be all but out of it.

Also goes to show there is indeed a sucker born every minute! I wonder if this guy would be intro'd in purchasing Hitler's toothbrush... I think I have one laying around here somewhere. He can have it for the low, low price of $1,500... a low price indeed for such a truly historic object. It was originally captured by a U.S. Private who discovered/liberated it from the Bunker (gave the Soviet guards a couple of packs of cigs to go in and snoop around.) and only used it to clean floors in the base bathroom from that time till he got out of the service a few years later.

Dan :cheers:

Edited September 20, 2011 by Hauptmann

[ostprussenmann_new]

Dan

You made me think of something that happened to me a few years ago regarding people who don't understand anything and the differences between Nazi and Imperial German items. I had to educate my wife on some basic things because when her firends come over and see my display of my Great Grandfather's medals and other things related to his unit next to my Grandfather, who was an American Marine in WWII and Korea, people ask here why there are Nazi things on the wall (ie: My Great Gradnfather's EKII (1914))? So she has to explain the EKII all of the time and the differences between the year, the "W", the Ribbon, ETC. One time a wife came over, who was Jewish and was offended by the display of the items and asked her to take it down while she was in our house. My wife first told her to leave, and then gave her a quick history lesson of the EKII along with throwing out the fact that Jewish people served in the Imperial German Army. She also stated if she was that ignorant, then never come back. I was not home, but to say I was really proud of her. So why do I tell this story? It goes with your posting; I don't have any aspirations of owning TR items. I am in a profession that can cause problems because of ignorance. I would like to at least own a TR EKII and EKI at some point, but that is it and it will never be displayed nor will it be a while.

ostprussenmann

[Hauptmann]

Dan

You made me think of something that happened to me a few years ago regarding people who don't understand anything and the differences between Nazi and Imperial German items. I had to educate my wife on some basic things because when her firends come over and see my display of my Great Grandfather's medals and other things related to his unit next to my Grandfather, who was an American Marine in WWII and Korea, people ask here why there are Nazi things on the wall (ie: My Great Gradnfather's EKII (1914))? So she has to explain the EKII all of the time and the differences between the year, the "W", the Ribbon, ETC. One time a wife came over, who was Jewish and was offended by the display of the items and asked her to take it down while she was in our house. My wife first told her to leave, and then gave her a quick history lesson of the EKII along with throwing out the fact that Jewish people served in the Imperial German Army. She also stated if she was that ignorant, then never come back. I was not home, but to say I was really proud of her. So why do I tell this story? It goes with your posting; I don't have any aspirations of owning TR items. I am in a profession that can cause problems because of ignorance. I would like to at least own a TR EKII and EKI at some point, but that is it and it will never be displayed nor will it be a while.

ostprussenmann

Definitely know the feeling... and I'm sure Kim would do the same in a similar situation. To me, going into someone's home I'd NEVER do such a thing regardless. I'm sorry... if things offend me I leave. Just like if something on the TV or radio offend me there is a little thing called a channel selector and an on/off switch. Same if in a book store there is a section that might offend me I simply don't go there. Sadly, the world has for some time gone the route of... it offends me... get rid of it! That's just wrong on so many levels.

My mother's current husband Carl (she and my dad divorced when I was in my thirties, and my father passed away years ago) is an example of all this. His father was a member of the Norwegian underground fighting the nazi's, was caught at one point and put into a concentration camp. He survived but his experiences left their mark on Carl. However, from the get go he knew I collected militaria including German from all eras. He even commented once that he was looking forward to seeing my collection some day. Turns out he was just "being polite" at the time. When they finally came to visit he happened to see some of my iron crosses (again of all eras) on a display shelf and got very upset... even started to cry it upset him so much. First off, had I even imagined that would happen I would have taken those items out of the display before he came over. But due to his comment about looking forward to seeing the collection, which he'd made on more than one occasion I'd not even thought about it. I didn't point them out, nor did I even bring up any of it when they were here... till he did. I felt awful but I also defend my right to collect what I want and to display same in my own home. I'd NEVER go into his home and ask him to not display something there. If something bothered me I'd leave. To me, a home is one's castle and what you do there or display there is no one else's concern. I am extremely sorry, especially as someone of German ancestry, about what happened to his father. But I didn't have anything to do with it when you come right down to it. I'm not a supporter of neo nazi's or any of that nonsense. I don't like what happened in the holocaust. I'm sorry for the pain he felt but it's not something I did. He should have explained his feelings from the get go instead of "being polite" and misleading me. Sigh.

On another occasion we were staying with my dad and his significant other in Maryland. She is Jewish. She also knew I collected... was not into it, but never said anything negative about it and I didn't talk about it or anything when around her. However, as a way of "advertising" my interest in militaria I often wear a replica Blue Max on a chain around my neck. On occasion I'll switch to a Romanian Order of the Crown or something colorful with enamel that catches the eye. It was and is a long time habit and on more than one occasion has linked me up with others in the hobby that I otherwise would never had met. Anyhow I was wearing the Romanian Order during that time and they had a Thanksgiving dinner during the time we were there and invited some of their (her) friends, some of whom were older Jewish ladies. Anyhow we had what I thought was a nice dinner and once done I went back in our room for a few minutes to do something and dad came in. He asked me if the cross I was wearing was German? I explained that it wasn't, was an Imperial Romanian award, etc., as it even has a crown on it, red and white enamel, etc. Not German in any way, shape or form (although it was awarded to Germans). Seems one of the ladies took great offense and got mad because she thought I was wearing a nazi medal. ARRRRRRRGH! Again while I understand her side, and I feel for what she and her family went through (which I didn't know during all this but only after the fact) I was rather put off that she didn't give me the benefit of the doubt and just ask me. Had she done that I'd have been able to explain and if it still bothered her I'd have taken it off. Honestly I'd not even remembered having it on. I'd just put it on, wear it and take it off at night. No different than someone who wears a St. Christopher medal or a Cross or a Star of David or whatever. It just becomes second nature. I'd not even given it the slightest thought and certainly had no intention of offending or upsetting anyone. But once he and I talked I was very upset as I felt I'd been wrongly accused of something and was not given the opportunity to defend myself, give an explanation or anything. I was guilty... period. I let it slide but it left a very bad taste in my mouth especially as I always tried to teach about the holocaust as part of the effort of making sure we never forget.

Ironically I've known many Jewish collectors of TR... I think it's kind of odd but they have just as much right to collect it as anyone else. It's a very individual thing. But I just got so tired of all the negative vibes I just put it well into the background. I mean, I collect guns too... and to the many anti-gunners out there that is offensive. But on that score I say tough! That's one area where I stand my ground. If they don't like guns... then they can choose not to be around them. This idea that one must give up things (or even have them confiscated) because another individual or group of individuals doesn't like it and things you should not have it is a bunch of bull. I keep them secure. I seldom shoot them and if I do it's at the range on rare occasions. I don't hunt but have nothing against hunting... just never got into it.

Seems there's going to be someone out there that nearly anything we say or do will offend. I think people need to work on growing thicker skins. In the old days this PC stuff was not an issue. I for one which it would go the way of the Dodo.

Oh well, takes all kinds I guess. I say, live and let live, be happy, enjoy life as much as possible and be good to others. Even the guy who bought that canister... if he wants one then no problem. I think it's odd... can't imagine wanting one... but to each his own. If it makes him happy or fulfills whatever purpose he has for it then more power to him. If I visited him where he had it on display (assuming he displays it) I'd never ask him to remove it or get rid of it. If it bothered me I'd explain in a nice way and say I need to leave but if he wants to we can go somewhere else and continue our visit... if not I'd understand but I'd hope he'd understand my feelings.

It's like smokers... it's their right to smoke and my right not to. I try to avoid places where there are smokers because it bothers me on several levels. My father was a smoker since he was twelve and it finally killed him. I hate the smell and don't like what the secondary smoke does to me, especially as I have asthma. But the only place I'll generally ask a smoker not to smoke is in my home or my car. But if I'm in their home or their car and they light up, it's my choice to leave that situation. I don't ask them to stop as that's their space.

Dan :cheers:

Edited September 20, 2011 by Hauptmann

[Kev in Deva]

Even assuming this was found in a KZ in 1945 by an (american ?) doctor... there are docuumented tins like this found by US vets in Dachau... although Dachau never used its Gas Chamber. The Zyklon B at Dachau had been used for other legitimate purposes for the surrounding military barraks... like Lice etc....

So, you could start of a Dachau tin collection.... Zyklon B tin, footpowder Tin, Roofing sealant tin from Dachau etc. Etc.

Of course who can forget the padlock from a dog kennel at Dacau that sent out eerie vibes.

Kevin in Deva.

[ostprussenmann_new]

Dan

Great response. Very enlightening.

ostprussenmann

[PKeating]

As someone of Jewish descent, this is one of the more disturbing artifacts I have handled. What surprises me most is that many collectors do not know what this is. Zyclon B was a cyanide-based insecticide manufactured by the companies DEGESCH and TESTA under license from patent holder IG Farben. infamous for its use by Nazi Germany against humans in the gas chambers of extermination camps during the Holocaust. Originally used in the camps for delousing (to control typhus) the material was tested in February of 1940 against 250 Cypsy children in the Buchenwald concentration camp. In 1941, approximately 600 Soviet prisoners of war and 250 sick Polish prisoners were first gassed at Auschwitz. The pelets of Zyclon B were dropped into the chambers through vents int he side walls or the ceiling. When the material made contact with air, the cyanide gas was released. Those inside the chambers died within 20 minutes. Ironically, Zyclon B was originally developed by Nobel Prize winner Fritz Haber, a world-famous chemist who was of Jewish ancestry. Several sizes of Zyclon B were made. This can, along with the smaller version, were acquired indirectly by me from the estate of an Army Officer who was a Doctor working inside the camp system after the war.

I would say that anyone bidding on this item would be aware of its Shoah associations. Regarding the Gypsy children, let's take a look at the chronology. Nazi racial dogma initially contended that Gypsies were Aryan. However, the decision was made on 30.1.1940 to transfer Germany's Gypsies to Poland. It is true that German death squads were already murdering Gypsies there. However, these were ad hoc actions predating the concept and instigation of the Final Solution and the imposition of Germanic order upon the killing process. Himmler's office did not order the incarceration of Gypsies in concentration camps until 16.12.1942. Prior to this, Himmler promoted the sterilisation rather than the killing of Gypsies.

As for this relic, it is hard to see how a US Army doctor "working inside the camp system after the war" could have obtained it were it from a camp where mass-killings involving Zyklon-B took place. Even Buchenwald was under Soviet and then East German control. Unless Gottlieb was referring to a Soviet doctor...

Business must be bad to be scraping the bottom of the barrel like this. Really creepy... But maybe we should try to tell the buyer that this can was probably not involved in the last, agonising moments of women and small children. Then he can get a refund for his fake Precious from Gollum.

PK

[ostprussenmann_new]

I would say that anyone bidding on this item would be aware of its Shoah associations. Regarding the Gypsy children, let's take a look at the chronology. Nazi racial dogma initially contended that Gypsies were Aryan. However, the decision was made on 30.1.1940 to transfer Germany's Gypsies to Poland. It is true that German death squads were already murdering Gypsies there. However, these were ad hoc actions predating the concept and instigation of the Final Solution and the imposition of Germanic order upon the killing process. Himmler's office did not order the incarceration of Gypsies in concentration camps until 16.12.1942. Prior to this, Himmler promoted the sterilisation rather than the killing of Gypsies.

As for this relic, it is hard to see how a US Army doctor "working inside the camp system after the war" could have obtained it were it from a camp where mass-killings involving Zyklon-B took place. Even Buchenwald was under Soviet and then East German control. Unless Gottlieb was referring to a Soviet doctor...

Business must be bad to be scraping the bottom of the barrel like this. Really creepy... But maybe we should try to tell the buyer that this can was probably not involved in the last, agonising moments of women and small children. Then he can get a refund for his fake Precious from Gollum.

PK

Great point, but I love the portion "his fake Precious." A little side-tracked, but he is my favorite character.

[Ulsterman]

Germaniajim - To be blunt-

Nazis and white supremacists are not welcome here: I have deleted your post and deleted you.

Bugger off.

See here pal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPZuYwYxnL4

[Kev in Deva]

Germaniajim - To be blunt-

Nazis and white supremacists are not welcome here: I have deleted your post and deleted you.

Bugger off.

See here pal:

Well said!

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[Ulsterman]

Ta Kev.

Lucky I got to the thread before Chris B. did; his response at Defcon One level might've brought the site down.

[joe campbell]

Ta Kev.

Lucky I got to the thread before Chris B. did; his response at Defcon One level might've brought the site down.

sorry i missed it... :unsure:

[Chris Boonzaier]

What did I miss????? :-))

I have been up to my ears in everything to do with the hobby of late so I missed it :-((