Chris Boonzaier Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 Look at this pic and ask.... why?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share Posted December 27, 2011 Two bavarians...... why does the one have the bMvK and the other the EK ? When a Bavarian Div commander was awarding medals, was the Bavarian or the Prussian higher? When the Hessen Div Commander was dishing out, was the Hessen Bravery or the EK2 higher? Was a coin flipped to see who got which one? Any idea what system was used to decide? Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Ironically, I have asked myself the same question. I thought that the awards presented had to do with who was in charge of the division(bavarian, prussian, or etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Anyone have any ideas on this? Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 The guy with the EK has a bigger moustache, which looks alot like the Kaiser's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hagahr Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 well ,maybe one off them got the Bavarian because his Bavarian officer pointed him out .. the other one maybe spotted by a Prussian officer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 well ,maybe one off them got the Bavarian because his Bavarian officer pointed him out .. the other one maybe spotted by a Prussian officer Hi, The photo is just an example, but the real question is how, within a bavarian Division (for example) the divisional commander decided if he was going to award a bavarian award or the EK2.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Hmmm...that's an interesting question. I have the complete awards roster for a Bavarian artillery regiment. There were a lot more BMVKxs awarded than EKs. ........And almost every officer got a BMVOx..... and every "combat" officer got an EK2 at least. I would like to know who determined what, but I reckon it was Company Commander- regimental commander, final signature by the Brigadier. but the real decider was the Battalion CO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudius Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Well, there could be couple of things going on here. First off, I think these gentlemen could be in different units. Notice the edelweiss pin on the hat for Mr. BMvK. Next, they could be of different rank. Again, the hats. Mr. EK2 has a standard EM Feldmutz, while Mr. BMvK has a peaked cap. They might not even have received them at exactly the same time. They just got together on leave to take this picture. (Friends from school days, back home on leave?) Now I have a strange question to offer here. How are the medals attached to the uniforms? Without looking it would be natural to presume that the ribbons are threaded through the award loops. But look closely. They are not threaded through. And they are not hanging from an unseen string from the button. The center of the loop doesn't fall directly underneath the button. IMO, these gents were on leave and have been walking around with the ribbons. For the photo they temporarily attached the medals under the ribbons with a pin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Danner Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I think there are many factors at play. One thing to keep in mind is that while we often call these other awards that state's "equivalent" to the Prussian Iron Cross, in fact they were not "equivalent" in many respects. The most obvious basic factor is that the Iron Cross, while technically a Prussian award, also was effectively the principal German combat award. So an award of the Iron Cross to a Bavarian was not the same as an award of the Mecklenburg Military Merit Cross or the Hesse General Honor Decoration for Bravery to a Bavarian, for which you usually needed some other reason like a birth connection or unit honorary chief. A Bavarian was considered for the Iron Cross based on the merits of his deeds. Whether he was also considered for the Military Merit Order/Military Merit Cross was a separate question. Usually, but not always, states responded to the award of the Iron Cross with the award of their own bravery/military merit decoration for the same deed. But even then, there might be a time lag. A second factor is that these awards were not "equivalent". They in fact did have different award criteria. Many state awards were treated as general military merit decorations, while at least in the early stages of the war, the Iron Cross still had a fairly exalted status. It was primarily for bravery or excellent leadership in combat, secondarily for staff officers for successful planning of combat operations, and far less common for acts of military merit away from the immediate front. Early war documents, newspaper reports, death announcements and the like refer to "Knights of the Iron Cross" ("Die Ritter des Eisernen Kreuzes"), while for most other non-orders, one was an "Inhaber" (the phrase "Inhaber des Eisernen Kreuzes" is also quite common, though). Obviously, there were exceptions and this evolved as the war dragged on, but the general idea remained that the Iron Cross was something special. The Bavarian Military Merit Order/Military Merit Cross with Swords, however, was a continuation of a peacetime general military merit decoration. It had a prestige, but not quite the same. And it was from the outset awarded for war merit not involving direct conflict at the front. The Brunswick War Merit Cross and the Oldenburg Friedrich August Cross had the same issue, such that later in the war devices were added - the Bewährungsabzeichen for the Brunswick cross and the "Vor dem Feinde" clasp for the Oldenburg cross - to distinguish combat awards from other war merit awards (the non-combatant ribbons were a separate issue with their own criteria). A third factor, which Chris and Ulsterman allude to, is who decided on the award. Authority to award the Iron Cross was delegated down the line pretty early in the war, wasn't it? You didn't have to go to the orders chancery in Berlin for approval. I have no idea when or how low the Bavarian King delegated his award authority, but it might not have been the same. Some other states (I think maybe Anhalt and Lippe-Detmold, for example?) generally required orders chancery approval for any military award, at least early in the war. So that could create a lag between award of the Iron Cross and award of the home state award. The photo at question, then, could be as Claudius suggests, for awards at different times, but maybe for yet another reason. Bavarian MVK recipient was recommended earlier but only approved by a higher authority at the same time that EK recipient was approved. EK recipient might have been recommended for an MVK as well, but is still awaiting approval. Or EK guy was at the front and MVK guy was further to the rear. Or the commander was just spreading the wealth, using his Prussian EK authority to recognize some guys and his Bavarian MVK authority to recognize other guys, rather than giving the same guy both awards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ostprussenmann_new Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Dave, been following the topic. That is some informative insite. One of my realatives for example was awarded a EK II in 1917, and close to the end of the war was awarded the Baden Miltary Merit Order/medal. In regards to this specific topic, I guess the real question is "what year was the photo taken?" That could narrow down some answers. Thanks for the info. it is a great photo though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 Hi, The Bavarian MVK seems to have been approved down at divisional level, inspite of the fact that it looks different on the document. There is another thing to take into account... something brought home to me while reading an autobiographical novel by a Prussian Artilleryman. He was wounded and landed up in a bavarian field hospital, all was well until the men in his room found out he was prussian... then they closed ranks on him and mobbed him to hell, ignoring him, even the orderlys stopped helping him, and the doctor was unfriendly... he managed to drop the line that he was born in Saxony and after a few days all was well... So... how did Bavarians like that see the EK? What did one think when he got a Prussian award and his buddy got a good old Bavarian one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Danner Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 So... how did Bavarians like that see the EK? They are probably among the ones who turned it around on their medal bars so that Wilhelm's cipher was on the reverse. Also, if you had both the EK and the MVK, you might put the MVK buttenhole ribbon over the EK. Though, what they thought of Prussians as a people and what they thought of the EK might be two different stories. What are Bavarian attitudes toward Prussians like today? When I was in Potsdam in September 2007, I saw a local news broadcast on the opening of the Oktoberfest. The reporter had a good time making fun of the Bavarians and their funny accents, which I found amusing given how harsh his accent sounded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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