Triadoro Posted January 16, 2012 Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) The bar is 100% original and untouched, but it is puzzling to me that there are no swords on this brave soldiers SEHO3b especially in light of the Hesse "Tapferkeit" medal that is present. Comments? Edited January 16, 2012 by garfordhouse
Claudius Posted January 16, 2012 Posted January 16, 2012 Hello Garfordhouse; Can you show us the back? Also, could you also flip the medals up to reveal the ribbon area below the awards. And how are the medals attached? I know you said it was untouched, but.....
saschaw Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 A pre war award? Most likely, I agree. One might have put it behind the Hassian medal, but hey, it's still a pretty enemal order. ;)
Claudio Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Hi guys! I don't like the Hessen ribbon... it looks like that ribbon has seen some manipulations, see at the height of the medal and the fact that the re-positioning of this medal has left some traces. Is it on Ebay? I think to have it seen before... A picture of the back would help to give more appropriate comments. More than swordless, I would be sleepless thinking to have such bar in my collection... I don't like it too much... but it's my gut feeling only. ciao, Claudio Edited January 17, 2012 by Claudio
Triadoro Posted January 17, 2012 Author Posted January 17, 2012 I will try to get more pictures from the seller and post them. He did mention that the medals were suspended from black metal spring-hooks.
Claudius Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 .....medals were suspended from black metal spring-hooks. :Cat-Scratch:
Triadoro Posted January 17, 2012 Author Posted January 17, 2012 Received a picture of the back. He plans to eventually list it and some other medals on Ebay. Will ask for further pictures.
Claudius Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 That's some sloppy stitching back there. The medals in the front have worn in their creases and begun fraying the ribbons but the felt on the back in in MINT condition. Even if this is a period bar, I still think that w/o sword SEHO3 was swapped in where a SEHO3X was. If it was a pre-war award, even if the owner decided to put it in front of other combatant awards, I would expect other pre-war service awards and maybe a long service medal. If you go for it and win. I would hit it with a black light on all the threads. What do others feel about it?
saschaw Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 I'm not sure, of course, if this is a mid-1930s bar. But I do't see that many red flags. I would expect other pre-war service awards and maybe a long service medal. I would neither. Young pre-war officer, Leutnant or Oberleuitnant in 1914, who yet got the EH3b, got an EK2, posibly EK1, and the HT in WW1... sounds fine! Precedence on the other hand isn't that much of an issue, from my experience.
Claudius Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 I'm not sure, of course, if this is a mid-1930s bar. But I do't see that many red flags. I would neither. Young pre-war officer, Leutnant or Oberleuitnant in 1914, who yet got the EH3b, got an EK2, posibly EK1, and the HT in WW1... sounds fine! Precedence on the other hand isn't that much of an issue, from my experience. A remarkable tribute for a young Leutnant or Oberleutnant to get a SEHO3. I would ask what he did to earn that award at such a young age, and why we don't see more examples of this on other medal bars.
Triadoro Posted January 17, 2012 Author Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) I would ask what he did to earn that award at such a young age, and why we don't see more examples of this on other medal bars. It is likely that he might have received it because of who his family was and/or who he knew ... not what he did. There are two K.u.K awards that were notorious for being given to the "Who they knew" group... the nobility, the gentry, i.e. the people from the right families. These were the Order of the Iron Crown and the Order of Franz Josef. (The Iron Crown Order could only be given to persons of noble ancestry.) To those who have knowledge about the Saxon house orders I ask: Is it possible that the SEHO might have been awarded in this way on some occasions? Edited January 17, 2012 by garfordhouse
Claudius Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 It is likely that he might have received it because of who his family was and/or who he knew ... not what he did. There are two K.u.K awards that were notorious for being given to the "Who they knew" group... the nobility, the gentry, i.e. the people from the right families. These were the Order of the Iron Crown and the Order of Franz Josef. (The Iron Crown Order could only be given to persons of noble ancestry.) To those who have knowledge about the Saxon house orders I ask: Is it possible that the SEHO might have been awarded in this way on some occasions? Hmmmmm....a good suggestion. But also problematic in at least two aspects. 1) If this is a noble born or well connected to nobility, then the quality of the medal bar is lacking (Claudio can speak well of medalbar quality between jewelers) 2) and more importantly, if he is nobility, or well connected before the war to get the SEHO3, and then during the war he serves faithfully to earn the EK2 and even a Hessian award. His own Sächsische Herzogtümer State gives him.....nothing? If this is a period bar, I think we need to apply Occum's Razor and simply suggest that the combatant award was carefully removed and this SEHO3 was swapped in.
Dave Danner Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Here is a perfectly normal bar with a peacetime SEHO and no wartime award from a Saxon duchy. In this case, the recipient was a Stabsarzt. He entered active duty in 1898, so no Centenary, and apparently did not reach 25 years before leaving the service, so no DA. So it is quite possible, if not common. You would be looking for an active officer, since a reserve or Landwehr officer would likely have the LD2. He would have gotten the SEHO before the war, possibly while serving in a regiment with a Saxon connection, and been in a Hesse regiment during the war. Another possibility is a recalled regular officer, who entered service after 1897, got the SEHO around the ten year mark, and then retired and moved to somewhere like Darmstadt or Giessen. That said, I think it is just as likely that someone removed a wartime SEHO with swords, as Claudius suggests. 2
Triadoro Posted January 20, 2012 Author Posted January 20, 2012 Can you show us the back? Also, could you also flip the medals up to reveal the ribbon area below the awards. And how are the medals attached? I don't like the Hessen ribbon... it looks like that ribbon has seen some manipulations, see at the height of the medal and the fact that the re-positioning of this medal has left some traces. Is it on Ebay? A picture of the back would help to give more appropriate comments. I'm not sure, of course, if this is a mid-1930s bar. But I do't see that many red flags. Precedence on the other hand isn't that much of an issue, from my experience. So it is quite possible, if not common. That said, I think it is just as likely that someone removed a wartime SEHO with swords, as Claudius suggests. I now have the medal bar in my hands. I was able to examine it and photograph it. It is my opinion that there is no evidence to suggest that this bar has been manipulated. The stitching, the thread, the backing look good. The SEHO is sewn into place. The others are hung on hooks behind the ribbons. I could not pass-up buying it. I got it for much less than the SEHO3b alone is worth!
Triadoro Posted January 20, 2012 Author Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) So it is quite possible, if not common. You would be looking for an active officer, since a reserve or Landwehr officer would likely have the LD2. He would have gotten the SEHO before the war, possibly while serving in a regiment with a Saxon connection, and been in a Hesse regiment during the war. Another possibility is a recalled regular officer, who entered service after 1897, got the SEHO around the ten year mark, and then retired and moved to somewhere like Darmstadt or Giessen. I have always believed that complete medal bars tell fascinating stories about military careers and experiences of real soldiers. This is why I favor collecting medal bars over individual medals and orders. It takes a person with your insight and expertise to makes some of these possible scenarios come to life. Edited January 20, 2012 by garfordhouse
Nicolas7507 Posted August 12, 2022 Posted August 12, 2022 On 16/01/2012 at 21:56, Triadoro said: The bar is 100% original and untouched, but it is puzzling to me that there are no swords on this brave soldiers SEHO3b especially in light of the Hesse "Tapferkeit" medal that is present. Comments? This could be the bar of later Generalveterinär Dr. med. vet. Karl Kiesewetter. Born in Gotha, he is listed with EK2, EH3b and HT in the Reichswehr ranklists. In the 1914 ranklist no EH3b is listed yet, but he could have received it after the publication of the ranklist. Regards Nicolas 3
Triadoro Posted August 13, 2022 Author Posted August 13, 2022 (edited) 18 hours ago, Nicolas7507 said: This could be the bar of later Generalveterinär Dr. med. vet. Karl Kiesewetter. Born in Gotha, he is listed with EK2, EH3b and HT in the Reichswehr ranklists. In the 1914 ranklist no EH3b is listed yet, but he could have received it after the publication of the ranklist. Hi and thank you kindly for this identification! I started this thread 10 years ago and completely forgot that I had this bar in my collection. Your memory is amazing... certainly better than mine! The funny thing about this is, that I encountered Kiesewetter's name and awards on page 188 of the 1932 Ranklist one week ago. I even wrote down his name. I remember saying to myself "too bad he has a bravery medal." I was looking for another combination of awards that included an Iron Cross and a SEHO Knight but didn't have a Hessen Tapferkeitsmedaille. Clearly, multi-tasking is not one of my strong suits. Thank you again for this ID !! Regards. Edited August 13, 2022 by Triadoro
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