Bulgaria FAKE BULGARIAN ORDERS ON THE MARKET

[Binky]

I'm sorry to see forgers being successful, perhaps the unwary buyers will discover the deception and return the goods (despite the no return policy). If nothing else, they can leave negative feedback. 

[Graf]

Hi Binky,

There are other scenarios as well :

Many buyers are not members of any clubs like this one and they will keep the items till they sell them and then they will find the truth Some will find sooner and will try to recover the loss by re-selling them

This guy was very smart , he knew what he was doing, therefore he had no return policy. Also the Ebay policy for fakes is that the buyer has to provide a certificate from a reputable expert that the item is fake..and then still it is not guaranty that he/she will get the money back

The moral of the story is if you see such a sale you better pass it

Keep away if the seller does have very vague details of the items, does not specify if the item is Original and has No return policy Always ask questions before commit yourself

[new world]

On 5/17/2017 at 13:01, new world said:

Here's another candidate for discussion. Sold on eBay couple years ago.

What do you think?

This St Alexander 1st class cross I posted couple days ago was reported by another collector.

It turned out to be a 'constructor', or an attempt to upgrade from 3rd class. Center piece with red enamel on front was fake, just like Graf reported in earlier posts. Red enamel was soft one. Fairly simple upgrade and faker offers an award which sells for double of what 3rd class sells. 

 

Furthermore, that collector also reported that the base of the cross was complete fabrication:

'The whole cross part (enamel and base/arms) is fake, the crown is good, the swords addition is fake too, very well done though! The enamel is cold, but unfortunately crappy pics don't tell you that'.

This is scary that fakers can make such good looking cross!!! You have to hold it in your hand to determine it's not good!

The seller of this fake cross was 'riaerica2000' on eBay, so beware!

 

 

[new world]

Here's another suspect.

One can't be 100% sure without holding the award in his hands, however low quality of this cross and lack of details makes me very concerned.

Look at the details of the swords and areas under red enamel - I've never such poor details, normally details are very crisp.

Crown could be OK though, at least from the pics quality seems to be as usual.

[new world]

Another problematic Bulgarian award sold by a major dealer.

Several issues with this set:

Problem 1. Metal circle on the reverse of the cross. 

Circle looks too big and too thick, out of proportion and in the shape I've never seen on the At Alexander crosses. Gold plating is not on the reverse center piece.

It also appears it's made from different metal (brass) than the rest of the cross (gilded silver).

Note how white enameled center is mis-alligned.

My guess is that that part was lost and later replaced by a custom made piece.

 

 

 

Problem 2. Cross and crown are not put together correctly, cross is turned 180 degrees.

Looking at the photo from previous post and one below one can see some warning signs:

- Enameled ribbons on the crown and back side of the cross are on the same side, cross was turned around 180,

- Signs of tempering on the loop which connects cross and crown.

Clearly the cross and the crown were separated and then put together again.

Possible constructor, where cross and crown are from different sets. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by new world

[new world]

Problem 3. 2nd class set was sold as Grand Cross

Dealer was advertising this as Grand Cross, while this is 2nd class of the award.

1. Star is from 2nd class - there's no flat streamer with spiky edge around the center.

2. Size of the cross, from the listing we learn that 'Cross, in silver gilt and enamels, 50.0mm'. That's the size of 2nd class cross, Grand Cross if larger.

3. No size of provided for the star. I think this is intentionally withheld, as it would have been obvious by the smaller star that this is lower class set.

Despite above three points dealer puts this set on a sash ribbon (should have been on a neck ribbon) and sells it for the price of a Grand Cross - $5900 (obviously much higher that he would have been asking and getting for 2nd class set).

This set is currently marked as SOLD on dealer's web site. Someone bought it with above mentioned issues and mis-advertised as Grand Cross. Someone paid too much...

Edited June 2, 2017 by new world

[lambert]

On 17/10/2016 at 09:31, Graf said:

Hi New World,

 

Yes, you are right only the 3rd Class 1st Grade Star is fake -It has Diamonds added to it to look Luxury Model.

It means that a Good Order was butchered for sinister purpose

It's a silly question, but the Order should have True Diamonds, right? Then the farce would be discovered shortly after the buyer request to check with a specialist.

Cheers

Lambert

Edited June 2, 2017 by lambert

[new world]

We will never know it those had real diamonds. Value of this awards is not with diamonds, it's extremely rare by itself.

The farce would have been discovered much earlier if potential buyer checked these fakes against photos of known examples. I don't think these were ever sold. Any serious buyer would perform due diligence before committing so much money to the purchase.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by new world

[lambert]

On 04/06/2017 at 08:45, new world said:

We will never know it those had real diamonds. Value of this awards is not with diamonds, it's extremely rare by itself.

The farce would have been discovered much earlier if potential buyer checked these fakes against photos of known examples. I don't think these were ever sold. Any serious buyer would perform due diligence before committing so much money to the purchase.

 

 

indeed. Just a thought of mine, I doubt they were real diamonds.

Cheers

Lambert

[Graf]

Hi Lambert,

 

The problem is that thre are collectors on the market who do not communicate with other fellow collectors and they buy such items believing that they are original. They even do not bother to check the diamonds. Even the diamonds were real , they could be very low grade ones. As far  as  I remember the Bravery "Set" was on sale for over 10.000 US$ The value of low quality diamonds plus the 1941 Orders cold be around 2.000 - 3,000 US$ at the best. Stl profit of 7.000.  ,,, and this is the best scenario if the Star is Original and the Diamonds real

This is not the only Luxury set offered by dishonest sellers. I remember few of them. There was a St Alexander Star offered by seller fro turkey. I saw the Star on his site before it was turned into "Luxury" with Diamonds The Star had specific marks that I noticed even after the improvement The price jumped nearly tenfold It was sold on Ebay.

. Do not spend hard earned money for questionable items... or they will be yours for ever with no value

[Graf]

Did you see this 1st Cl;ass Set of the Order of St Alex on Ebay

Republican Model

 

In my Opinion is Fake

1  The Cross has fabricated central medallion -very likely soft enamel as the one you showed  GMIC i do not like the swords attachment as well

2. The Star as a whole is very strange - 85 mm wide - it should be 88 mm

The finish is very bad especially the swords. I do not like those rivets on the back They remind me of the attachment of the fake Military Merit Stars

The central medallion especially the green enamel lacks the fine pattern under the enamel.

The central red enamel plus the Lion -poor quality

The Wreath is also strange pattern

 

What do you think?

[new world]

hi Graf,

This set is certainly a fake and should be avoided.

Details are not there, fake patina, nut attachments for the swords - just some warning signs... 

 

[Graf]

Hi,

The quality will not fool an old collector, however it is a trap for the beginner collector

A real First Class Set will never be made so many faults. Not talking about the soft enamel.

Few fakes, with a different quality appeared on the market We have to be very careful if you do not want to depart with our hard earned $$$ for a fake.

I hope some poor collector who is not a member of this Forum can buy it. i suspect the seller from Bulgaria knows very well, because he/she priced the Set not very high plus "make an offer " feature. i bet he/she will accept very low offer for the fake Set

[922F]

Yes, dangerous for the unsuspecting.   From musical instruments to Orders......    Do not forget the sash!!  

[Graf]

Hi 992F,

Thank you for the comment

i did not include the sash because it is a modern made Grand Cross one, which was not mentioned in the listing.

That means  mismatch, however it is the smallest problem of the Set It was bought either from the World (International] Ribbons  site or it is locally made one -more likely the first option - it costs 120 $ This company makes very nice ribbons mainly from modern materials, however they can not make the 1st Class Ribbon due to the high cost to make one and very low demand

Sometimes they get a hold of Original old materials and make very good quality ribbons, nearly exactly like the Originals

BTW the Ribbon loop on the top of this Set is from the same company  you can buy from the company - It is Silver Gilded (not market) i think costs 30 or 40 EURO

 

[new world]

Fake Knyaz Ferdinand election cross 

Edited September 30, 2017 by new world

[Graf]

At least the seller admits it is a brass copy with a new ring This item is on eBay for sale.

[new world]

Anther one that looks suspect to me:

[Graf]

On 9/25/2017 at 01:15, Graf said:

Did you see this 1st Cl;ass Set of the Order of St Alex on Ebay

Republican Model

 

In my Opinion is Fake

1  The Cross has fabricated central medallion -very likely soft enamel as the one you showed  GMIC i do not like the swords attachment as well

2. The Star as a whole is very strange - 85 mm wide - it should be 88 mm

The finish is very bad especially the swords. I do not like those rivets on the back They remind me of the attachment of the fake Military Merit Stars

The central medallion especially the green enamel lacks the fine pattern under the enamel.

The central red enamel plus the Lion -poor quality

The Wreath is also strange pattern

 

What do you think?

The Set is gone from eBay.

 

I hope no one did buy it

 

[new world]

On 10/8/2017 at 17:28, Graf said:

The Set is gone from eBay.

 

I hope no one did buy it

 

eBay status is 'Best offer accepted', so unfortunately someone bought it.

[Graf]

Hi

 

I just noticed that a very strange form Grand Cross of the Order of St Kylil and Methodius was sold by a dealer

It was claimed to be the King Ferdinand Model.

I can not make any conclusions at this stage, however this Cross is a different to any other known  till now.

 

It is very simplified central medallion The colour of the reverse medallion is blue ???

It has single sided enamel flames  The quality is not as good as the well known Crosses

Note 1  Similar was sold on the 173  Kuenker Auction and was claimed to be made by Spanish firm Cejalvo around 1970 This Cross had much better quality))

Note 2  Few  years ago a Grand Cross Set with a Similar Cross and a 1st Type Star was sold on Auction in France

In my opinion the Star was Good The Set came with a sash

Two years ago the Cross was sold on other Auction in Europe No Star No sash

Now This Cross surfaced again on its own - No Star No sash

I will wait for your comments

 

Graf

 

[new world]

hello Graf,

Professor Pavlov thinks this variation of the cross is legitimate, he describes them in latest edition of his book.

As you can see - there was more than one example of this same type through the years.

I also see that back in 2010 Kuenker sold similar type, but with red enameled reverse medallion (item 8252). 

 

 

 

 

Here's exactly the same type as sold by the dealer, on the sash and in worn condition.

and the star that goes with the cross.

[new world]

The above award is from the museum of in Estonia:

Order of Saints Equal to Apostles Cyril and Methodius, star, 1920-1930. Kingdom of Bulgaria. The exhibition of the Tallinn Museum of Orders of Knighthood, Estonia.

http://www.tallinnmuseum.com/home.html

 

Recent discussion we had on this type:

 

Edited October 22, 2017 by new world

[Igor Ostapenko]

3000 GBP for original order ?

[Graf]

Hi,

This Cross is different from the Kuenker one

The central medallion has the St. brothers painted different and the back ground is not the same plus this dark blue colour of the back medallion.

I do not have the latest Prof. book yet.

The Set in the Tallin Museum looks like the one sold in France few years ago

BTW This Set was sold on the Auction for 5500 EURO plus com.

 

All points towards Spanish made one unless the enamel is tested.

as Igor noted the price of this Cross was 2995 GBP and it was just sold by Liverpool Medals

This Cross was sold 2 years ago either by Spink or Norton & Eden

 

 

Edited October 22, 2017 by Graf