lew Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 Hello guys, may I have your opinion about this Crown Order? It's not my field but I do know there are fine copies out there. Many thanks
Streptile Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 Hi Lew, That is a very nicely made copy from (as the dealers and auctioneers say) "after 1918"
VtwinVince Posted October 29, 2013 Posted October 29, 2013 I agree, a nice piece. Of course an award piece would be significant money.
Streptile Posted October 29, 2013 Posted October 29, 2013 I don't know who made it or exactly when, but it's a fake or a copy. They're made in the same style in many different classes and grades (swords, swords on ring, with RAO Band, etc etc). The design of the central medallion is not correct (this is the most easily recognizeable problem), the quality is not there, the design of the swords is not correct, and the markings (for Wagner sv here, I think) are spurious. No serious dealer or auctioneer sells these as originals, although they are routinely sold as "post-1918 copies," which is a neat euphemism for a fake in almost all cases. Very reputable sellers (Straube, Bretzendorfer) sell them as "collector's copies." That said, it's a very nicely made piece and they do bring some money as collector's pieces, especially in the higher grades (with RAO Band, e.g.).
lew Posted October 29, 2013 Author Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) The design of the central medallion is not correct (this is the most easily recognizeable problem), the quality is not there, the design of the swords is not correct, and the markings (for Wagner sv here, I think) are spurious. Now I see, the central medallion is looking different from original examples. I'm still a bit confused by the terms like post-1918 copies, museum copies and collector copies etc., I guess they all mean high quality fakes. Edited October 29, 2013 by lew
Chris Boonzaier Posted October 29, 2013 Posted October 29, 2013 Hi, it is a subjective thing IMHO. It is sure that many vets post 1918 at some stage bought awards. If A guy bought an EK1 in 1922 made by a company to sell to veterans, then for me that has a collectors value. If the same company made a 1914 EK in 1990... I would consider it a collectors copy/Fake... Now if they had made it in 1955.... then it could be the one ot the other. If we assume S+L made 1957 Knights crosses for veterans, then they are (IMHO) legitimate copies for the people who were awarded the KC, but at some stage the worm turned, and they were making just for collectors... and somewhere in between they were making for recipients AND collectors.... Its a rather ambiguous thing IMHO....
Komtur Posted October 29, 2013 Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) Hi, it is a subjective thing IMHO. It is sure that many vets post 1918 at some stage bought awards. If A guy bought an EK1 in 1922 made by a company to sell to veterans, then for me that has a collectors value. If the same company made a 1914 EK in 1990... I would consider it a collectors copy/Fake... Now if they had made it in 1955.... then it could be the one ot the other. If we assume S+L made 1957 Knights crosses for veterans, then they are (IMHO) legitimate copies for the people who were awarded the KC, but at some stage the worm turned, and they were making just for collectors... and somewhere in between they were making for recipients AND collectors.... Its a rather ambiguous thing IMHO.... The difference to the here dicussed Crown Orders is, that these are mostly very scarce items (as Trevor wrote e.g. 1st classes with Red Eagle Order ribbon between the arms or with swords or swords on the ring or both!). There was no or only a hand full of recepients still living after 1918. Therefore in this case we see a significant disproportion of circulating items on today marked and the need of privately by wearers bought orders. They overflowed the collector marked always offered as originals in the 1970ies via one auction house and one dealer. Besides this they are marked W for Wagner, but have a significant different design (as Trevor desribed) to awarded Crown Orders. In my opinion because of these reasons the only clear description can be: FAKE. Regards, Komtur. Edited October 29, 2013 by Komtur
paul wood Posted October 29, 2013 Posted October 29, 2013 They overflowed the collector marked always offered as originals in the 1970ies via one auction house and one dealer.Ah uncle Ernst RIP
Streptile Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) the only clear description can be: FAKE. This is a succint and accurate summary Edited October 30, 2013 by Streptile
Chris Boonzaier Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 There was no or only a hand full of recepients still living after 1918. Regards, Komtur. That of course is a major difference to the EKs.... I was unaware of that. So obviously not made for recipients.
Streptile Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) It's a beautiful original piece made after Nov. 1916. I should also add that it's a 2. Class, not a 1. Class as (apparently) is the thread-starter. Edited October 31, 2013 by Streptile
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