Soviet OPW Double Screwback Group

[Stogieman]

Probably the safest bet Ed, Have PMD check them out.

[Ed_Haynes]

Planned on doing so. Sorry for launching what might have turned into a nasty and ungentlemanly row, worthy of other fora. Consider the question withdrawn. If the moderators consider it desitable, please remove the images.

[seb16trs]

it is a pity this topic might be closed to avoid a fight...would it be possible t hear some ARGUMENTS from both sides? Kilka should expose with more details and arguments his opinions. A picture with a "do-it-yourself" procedure is too simple for me. And I believe there-re here some moderators who are able to examinate objectively this award.

[KILKA]

This photo from http://mondvor.narod.ru/

Look at distance between a staff of a banner and an axe.

What height of a sign?

[KILKA]

Pay attention to diameter of a flange and to its ration.

Writing of the letter of M differ. The inscription ???????? and the ???? is executed by two different punches, and on yours - one. The area at number of your sign is smoothed out, not on a mint.

[KILKA]

And last photo with close number.

[Riley1965]

Kilka,

So far, IMHO NOTHING you have shown changes the authenticity of the ORB. There is nothing about it that says "fake". It's a good ORB in my book!!! If anything , it's well worn. I agree that To satisfy the Kilka's mob he should have PMD look at it, but Ed has as good an eye for these as anyone else

Doc

Edited December 27, 2006 by Riley1965

[Riley1965]

Now that I've had time to look, look and look again and re-think this, Kilka's so-called evidence is VERY lacking in proof!!! I don't see why Ed should have to get a COA because of Kilka's VERY bad "evidence". Kilka, There is nothing personal about this. Welcome to the forum!!! I just disagree with the "evidence" you posted and I know my experience and the experience of Ed & Chuck. Bottom line it's NOT a fake!!! Enjoy the forum!!!

Doc

Edited December 27, 2006 by Riley1965

[Bryan]

Bottom line it's NOT a fake!!! Enjoy the forum!!!

Sorry Doc, but how could you be so sure without a hand inspection? I think it is very interesting what Kilka said and I was not aware of those 2 mint mark stamps.

By the way, I don't understand why a topic like this should be close just because somebody is suspicious about an order. Aren't we all here to learn something?

[Ed_Haynes]

Frankly, I am uncertain on these medals (and the other group), which is why I had posted them for discussion. I have had queasy feelings on them for some time.

The danger with such discussion, however, is that it can so easily degenerate into a snarling match or into an exercise in dueling upsupported ex cathedra assertions of expertise. We have gotten perilously close to both, I fear. Either is ungentlemanly and unworthy of THIS forum.

While I am not a believer in the pseudo-scientific approach to unmasking fakes that prevails in some circles (and immensely distrustful of the implicit and often pretentious assertion that the manufacture and award of medals was ever an exact science down to the last angstrom), I do realise that fakes exist, sometimes abound. I had hoped, like Soviet, that we could learn collectively, but am unclear how circled photos constitute learning.

Maybe resorting to Pauls' expertise is the best way to approach such issues.

Edited December 27, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Riley1965]

My apologies to Ed and all. I'll become a silent observer and make no further posts.

Regrets,

Doc

[Gerd Becker]

My apologies to Ed and all. I'll become a silent observer and make no further posts.

Regrets,

Doc

Doc,

there is no need to do that you should reconsider. We all have a bad day sometimes.

I hope, you?ll stay with us and continue to contribute with posts.

best,

Gerd

[KILKA]

Here still a photo of a sign ? 61252.

I wish to find true in this question. The award is not similar on presented samples, even "hand" of the master, who are cut out number differs!

[Eugene]

Ed,

Very nice group. But if I were you I would returned the group to the seller ASAP because of authenticity problem. RB is a fake.

In my book sending it to Paul is just waste of money.

Regards

Eugene

Edited December 27, 2006 by Eugene

[Riley1965]

Gerd,

I'll be around. There's too much stubborn Irish blood (my new avatar is my family crest) in my veins. I like this forum and most of the people here too much. I'm not convinced by Kilka's "evidence". To paraphrase Soviet " No one can say that the ORB is Bad or Good based on the scans/pictures since we don't have the ORB in hand". I still think, based on the evidence presented that it's a good ORB. In, fact, If the current owner doesn't want it, I'll buy it from them. I'm that convinced.

Doc

Edited December 28, 2006 by Riley1965

[zook]

I always enjoy Eugene's replies from my days on the Soviet Forum ...direct - to the point!

Without originally reading the string and just looking at the first pics - I thought the RB looked "bad."

Now, having said that, and despite the fact that I agree with Eugene - one can ignore opinions (of us) and

I recommend just doing the "basics" before sending anything to Paul ...the 101 stuff.

In other words, weight, measurements and enamel testing.

I have been collecting soviet for a long time ... and recently came across a Nevsky at a local Virginia show for @ 150.00 dollars. It was damaged (screw post missing) and the seller didn't specialize in Soviet...but let me tell ya, it looked PERFECT in all respects. For the price, I didn't pass it up (..and I knew the seller would be good for a refund)...I took it home, and it passed all tests and comparisons with my other Nevskies..EXCEPT... it failed the enamel test (under a black light) BADLY... entirely new enamel. The best fake I have EVER seen! To the basic eye, the enamel even looked very good! ... and I have since shown to others who agree.

One shouldn't feel bad to be taken in with a group (if it turns out bad) these days. The quality of copies and fakes are just getting TOO good. It is all a big learning experience. In my opinion, these kind of threads are the best to learn from ...novices and veterans alike.

Zook (Dan)

[Riley1965]

Well, Please Let me start over. Kilka, WELCOME to the forum!!! I will list the parts of your evidence that I can show is wrong.

1) POST 29: On the Obverse of the ORB you circled the plow head at the flag pole. This is still debated today. There are genuine ORBs that have or do not have the plow head touching the flag pole.

2) POST 30: You have marked an area around the screw post. There is nothing concerning in that area. I would like to know how many threads there are on the screwpost. You MAY have a point here.

3) Post 31: While the Mint Mark is worn/faded it still looks like a genuine engraved Serial Number.

These are points I looked at from your posts and spent a good amount of time reading my PMD. I did this to avoid "these people & Me are experts" I wanted to provide counter-evidence of my observations which were confirmed by the PMD.

Doc

[KILKA]

Kilka, WELCOME to the forum!!!

Thanks

What height of an order?

[NavyFCO]

I would like to know how many threads there are on the screwpost. You MAY have a point here.

I'm curious as to why the number of threads might be a indicator for my own knowledge. I've just seen enough screwback orders - including now nearly a dozen that were never worn - that have varying lengths of screwposts, as well as some that have rounded ends, pointed ends, etc. etc...

Thanks!

Dave

[KILKA]

Look, unless not twins?

[KILKA]

Revers

What is "PMD"?

[Riley1965]

I'm curious as to why the number of threads might be a indicator for my own knowledge. I've just seen enough screwback orders - including now nearly a dozen that were never worn - that have varying lengths of screwposts, as well as some that have rounded ends, pointed ends, etc. etc...

Thanks!

Dave

Dave,

My mistake. The PMD on page 72 bottom paragraph discusses the lower number of threads per centimeter. However (Here's my mistake) it is only mentioned for the Type 1 Mirror reverse.

Doc

[Bryan]

Вот пожалуйста

Edited December 28, 2006 by Soviet

[Bryan]

Doc, please remember that PMD book is not the only reference to recognized if an order is original or not. You should consider more than one book that was published 10 years ago !!!

Edited December 28, 2006 by Soviet

[Riley1965]

Soviet,

You may have a good point. However, for looking at types and variations and information such as the plow head, it is the BEST book.

Everybody,

PLEASE LISTEN, I am not trying to knock apart the evidence that Kilka has generously provided us. I am NOT convinced by all of it. He does have a couple of good points: the s/n and the mint mark. After talking about this with my mentor, it would seem that I may be totally wrong. If this is so I will state just that. I am NOT an expert regarding the ORB I can only post what I have experienced or read. For the current guardian of this ORB, I Hope that it is genuine.

Doc

Edited December 28, 2006 by Riley1965