Soviet OPW Double Screwback Group

[Riley1965]

Вот пожалуйста

Soviet,

What does"Вот пожалуйста" mean my friend?

Doc

[Stogieman]

The new "The Order of the Red Banner" Durov, Strekalov, C. 2006, Moscow is superb. Despite the Russian (only) text it's well worth it for the illustrations of variants alone. Oodles of photos. I have an extra copy, if anyone wants one.

[KILKA]

??? ??????????

Thanks, but seems to me, that this book is now more actual.

[Riley1965]

Thanks, but seems to me, that this book is now more actual.

Kilka,

What does ??? ?????????? mean?

Doc

[Riley1965]

I would like to buy it.

Doc

[order_of_victory]

Doc,

The rough translation is there it is

Order of Victory

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks, but seems to me, that this book is now more actual.

Yes, the book is "actual", it does exist, I have seen it, though I could not read a word in it it has pretty piuctures with illegible captions.

[Riley1965]

Order of Victory,

Thank You for the translation!! I am trying to learn to read Russian. I'm having trouble with a letter by letter translation of the cyrillic alphabet. For example recently I was attempting to translate the text on a badge. The letter by letter cyrillic to english translation was Beograd. I found out that it was Russian for Belgrad.

Doc

[order_of_victory]

Order of Victory,

Thank You for the translation!! I am trying to learn to read Russian. I'm having trouble with a letter by letter translation of the cyrillic alphabet. For example recently I was attempting to translate the text on a badge. The letter by letter cyrillic to english translation was Beograd. I found out that it was Russian for Belgrad.

Doc

Doc,

I can recognise workd and phrases I know in Russian, but to tranaslate phrases I dont know thats a different kettle of fish.

Well to translate it word by word it comes out there please

Order of Victroy

[Bryan]

Soviet,

What does"Вот пожалуйста" mean my friend?

Doc

Kilka asked what PMD means. So I answered : "Here please" I guess there is a better translation for that in English.

PMD = Paul McDaniel (book)

[Bryan]

Durov and Strekalov book to see before to buy it.

http://www.mirnagrad.ru/cgi-bin/exinform/p...28/chapter1.doc

http://www.mirnagrad.ru/cgi-bin/exinform/p...28/chapter2.doc

[Riley1965]

Soviet & Order of Victory,

Thank You my friends!!! I am trying hard to learn to read and speak Russian. Your help will be needed from time to time!!

Doc

[Mondvor]

Actually, this is the second book of Durov and Strekalov. The first one was about Order of Lenin and was higly proffessional issue as well.

http://www.mirnagrad.ru/cgi-bin/exinform.c...=27&ppage=1

http://www.mirnagrad.ru/cgi-bin/exinform.c...=27&ppage=2

http://www.mirnagrad.ru/cgi-bin/exinform.c...=27&ppage=3

http://www.mirnagrad.ru/cgi-bin/exinform.c...=27&ppage=4

http://www.mirnagrad.ru/cgi-bin/exinform.c...=27&ppage=5

Another book is about to be published. Should be available in summer. It is about Badge of Honor by Oleg Derevyanko.

[Christophe]

Hi Bryan and Andrei,

I have these two books which are excellent in detailed informations, quality of pictures... even if not easy to use for me (they are in Russian... ). I know, I have to learn Russian, I know!!!

But, for my information, what is this site Mirnagrad ? Are they linked to Durov ? How are they allowed to post such a summarised version of the books ?

I have to say it is interesting, because, thanks to the help of an online translator, you can have at least a summarised version to help you (me!!) better understand and read the content.

Ch.

[Christophe]

(...) The letter by letter cyrillic to english translation was Beograd. I found out that it was Russian for Belgrad.

Doc

Beograd ( Београд ) is also the name in Serb...

Ch.

[JimZ]

I have been going through this thread and I must say that I feel sorry for the cold reception Kilka was given. I think that at the end of the day, whether an item is fake or not will remain to a very large degree a matter of judgement unless the medal is observed. Of course, there are pointers which can or cannot indicate the veracity of an award. However, contradicting arguments on authenticity, should not a) provoke any negative feelings or b) have members get into a pissing war against eachother. The idea is that we exchange ideas and walk away all the wiser. Getting duped into buying a fake order or medal is not the end of the world. It happens to some more than to others, but it happens especially in this world when medals are judged based on computer images. If your going to spend money based on such images get ready to write some off. Unless of course there is a COA or unless you actually handle the piece yourself. Reputable dealers, although sometimes more expensive will at the end of the day give you certain guarantees should the item turn out to be fake which you may otherwise not get. But at the end of the day the arguments should be positive.

I have said it a few times but the Red Bible which remains I think the first greatest contribution to the collecting of Soviet medals is now sadly outdated and has always lacked other details on say, award booklets for starters. I blame the red bible for the early lack of collectors enthusiasm in picking up their awards with documents. However, it remains a milestone worthy of praise. However, if one collects by the bible, then one is losing out and missing opportunities to obtain original items which were not yet observed at the time. This is nevertheless to be done with caution as at the end of the day a good fake can be mistakenly considered as a different variety. And I think this will by and large remain a recurring point in collector circles as long as the quality of fakes is improving. We all await a very overdue update of the red bible or its eventual replacement by something definitive and comprehensive - even if only for a few years!!

As for the Order of Honour and the Order of the Red Banner in this thread, I personally would also have stayed away from them. I do not like the obverse of the red banner, its enemalling and overall quality. I do not like the mintmark on the reverse either. Same really applies to the Badge of Honour which I would almost suspect to be a converted flatback from the mint mark and the quality of the riveting. With such early types it is a hard to say without careful close up analysis (preferibly hands on) and study of more detailed and close up pics. Still, I would personally not consider these as keepers! With all respect to everyone who differs in opinion.

Jim

[Mondvor]

I really do not understand why some respected members of this forum prefer to ask PMD instead of using their own power of brains. Both RD and BH are converted from suspension variations and it is so obvious that even a beginner should see that. RB was made out of this variation (check below). Mintmark is the same. It also has totally replaced enamel and nice fake patina around screwpost.

[Mondvor]

This one is for BH. Just compare the mintmark. Half year ago I posted several pictures on this forum explaining HOW the mintmark on screwback BH should look like.

Edited January 4, 2007 by Mondvor

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks!

When evidence is presented calmly, rationally, and as evidence and not as assertion, we can of course use our "power of brains". When we are simply told "fake" with no rational evidence presented, we sometimes react poorly. Maybe we shouldn't. Yet, sometimes, having expert certification is still useful and valuable. I think you can understand that.

Edited January 4, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[Mondvor]

Thanks!

When evidence is presented calmly, rationally, and as evidence and not as assertion, we can of course use our "power of brains". When we are simply told "fake" with no rational evidence presented, we sometimes react poorly. Maybe we shouldn't. Yet, sometimes, having expert certification is still useful and valuable. I think you can understand that.

Ed, what are you talking about? What other evidences do you need? I posted two pictures that explained how those fakes were made. Is that not enough???

[Ed_Haynes]

Ed, what are you talking about? What other evidences do you need? I posted two pictures that explained how those fakes were made. Is that not enough???

No, I am happy with the evidence as it has been presented. At first, the evidence wasn't presented but the facts are now on the table on both "groups". I appreciate all your help. The seller (a forum friend) has been contacted.

[Mondvor]

Sorry, maybe I was too strict and rude. Emotions

Just want to add that KILKA is a well known member on Russian forums. I think that on previous posts he gave enough evidences and illustrated them with graphical examples with detailed description.

[KILKA]

Sorry, maybe I was too strict and rude. Emotions

Just want to add that KILKA is a well known member on Russian forums. I think that on previous posts he gave enough evidences and illustrated them with graphical examples with detailed description.

Andrey, thanks for support.

I could result enough arguments, if I spoke English is better.

[Ed_Haynes]

Nope. no problems. Emotions are always involved with issues like this, especially where a body of evidence has to be assembled since money is involved. All of us also need to bear in mind that we are an international forum and, for that reason, language issues can sometimes cloud communications.

I do feel that soemtimes we get a bit like our distant cousins who collect that Nazi stuff: presenting two uncaptioned pictures and an aggressively worded conclusion does not always constitute rationally argued evidence. While we have a long way to go before we start spilling blood (and reputation) over the obscurities of beading of the rims of Iron Crosses (based on images that look identical to novices like me), their behavior should serve as a cautionary example for us!

And until we have published sources in English that are better, most of us will be stuck with The Red Bible. Excellent even revolutionary for its time, but with flaws that become more obvious as each year passes and their work ages ungracefully. The fact that there are good, focused, expensive books out there in Russian and of course a marvelous website in Russian may be interesting in the abstract, but it doesn't help most of us very much. Online translations may or may not be much help. This is unfortunate, because it not only puts some excellent (and beautiful) work off limits to many of us but adds to the growing gulf between collectors in Russia and those in the rest of the world. And "learn Russian" sounds easier than it is, especially beyond a certain age.

[Mondvor]

The only reason why I was so full of emotions is because we have already discussed exactly same problems with screwback BHs some time ago. I posted many pictures, explained how original mintmark shood look, but it seems that people did not pay attention.

Here is a topic http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7777&st=0 and my explanation started from post # 57. It would be enough just to compare mintmark configuration.