Order of George I Greece by Souval, Help!

[peron]

Can anyone help me on identify if this is a WWI model or WWII?

Was this model atributed to military personnel?

Thanks

Peron 

 

Edited July 25, 2016 by peron

[paul wood]

Peron,

According to Jacob "Court Jewellers of the World" Souval manufactured Greek Orders up to 1940. They didn't really get into Order manufacture in a big way until after the Great War, my feeling is that it is a 1935-40 issue as the order was abolished during the republic of 1924-35. It is a civil award as after 1921 swords were added when awarded to military personnel.

I hope this is of help.

Paul

 

 

[922F]

Paul, with his usual scholarly comments, resolved this query quickly!  Sometimes people think that the George I monogram on case lids means that the decoration dates to his reign.  This impossible as King Constantine I established the award in 1915 two years after his father [George I] died.

Award documents bear George I's monogram and possibly by extension so do case lids manufactured in Greece, Germany, Vienna, and elsewhere.  During WW II, Spink made insignia ususally presented in a case bearing a royal crown embossed on the top.   See also  Greek Orders and Medals, Geōrgios D. Dēmakopoulos, 1961.

[makedon]

The Order of George I was attributed to military personnel, as well as civilians. The R. Souval issue is the typical post-WWI example that we see in greek medal bars.

[Tim B]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 02:36, paul wood said:

Peron,

According to Jacob "Court Jewellers of the World" Souval manufactured Greek Orders up to 1940. They didn't really get into Order manufacture in a big way until after the Great War, my feeling is that it is a 1935-40 issue as the order was abolished during the republic of 1924-35. It is a civil award as after 1921 swords were added when awarded to military personnel.

I hope this is of help.

Paul

 

 

Hi Paul,

Greek ODM's are always a bit perplexing for me so thought I would ask here.  How would you date this 5th class silver award, as it carries the 1915 date and swords for the military division?

 

Peron,

Can we see the reverse of the cased medal you show?

Tim

Edited November 16, 2016 by Tim B

[paul wood]

Tim,

Having a case for these is always useful in helping to date the piece, my gut feeling is post 1935 (a fair number were given out in WWII)

Paul

[Tim B]

Hi Paul,

Interesting, as I would have thought with the 1915 date on the reverse, it would have been during WW1 under King Constantine I. 

The other possibility I had considered was, in the early 1920's under the first reign of King George (1922 -1924) as many awards were produced post war.  Surprised to hear it was actually during the second reign (1935 -1947). 

 

I'm still trying to piece together some understanding of this medal bar and associated ribbon bars I have spanning WW1 into the 1940's.

As you can see here, the ribbon bars have swords added to both the Order of George as well as the Order of the Phoenix, though the medal bar shows the (King George period) Phoenix without swords.  I never did hear back on any George Order for this group but as everything came together, I assume they were originally part of the same estate and perhaps the George Order was never mounted?

It also shows the updated ribbon from the 1940 (1st version) of the Military Merit Medal (yellow with black stripes) to the Medal for Outstanding Acts, later the Distinguished Conduct Medal (yellow with red stripes).  I think the 2nd version of the medal changed in 1940 but I'm not sure when the ribbon actually changed to red stripes.  As ribbon bars tend to be worn more often and thus updated more frequently, that may indicate later service, but I'm just not sure as so many things changed with this medal.

Tim

[Tim B]

The other thing I wanted to ask about; is there a way to determine the age, by either the crown or color of the red enamel?

Here you can see two example and the crown designs are different.  I'm not sure if the gilt 4th class utilized a different pattern than the silver 5th class but you can see the gilt grown is filled in and wider in dimension.  Also, the color of the enamel appears dlightly different.

 

Tim

And another example here with a mix of era awards.

[paul wood]

The 1915 is the date the order was founded and is on all orders, the crossed sword were not added until 1921 a year before Constantine got the Order of the Boot 1st class. When there are with other medals it is easier to date them or from the case of issue. For a Constantine I period issue one would expect to see Great War and Balkan War medals in the group. A large number of issues are WWII vintage.

Paul

[Tim B]

Thanks Paul!

[makedon]

Hello and happy new year Tim,

The left is Kelaidis manufacture (post WWII), the right is Spink's manufacture (WW2 issue) and the one in the bar is Huguenin manufacture.

Would it be possible to send me a reverse of the medal bar, please?

Regards,

Dimitris

[Tim B]

Happy New Year Dimitris,

I am trying to find the bar again to see if there was ever a reverse photo shown, though I think I would have copied it if there was. 

Here was the written description:

Very Rare, Group of 5 medals. Awarded to P. Ntalliani, lieutenant. Two of them are navy.

A) ROYAL ORDER OF GEORGE,I/knights gold cross(Military Division).

B) ORDER OF THE PHOENIX/knights gold cross(Civil).George II,period.

C) Medal of military merit.

D) Commemorative medal of the war 1940-41(NAVY).

E) NAVY MEDAL 1935 2nd class,on back "ει τον πλοιαρχον π.νταλιανην επι διασωσει ναυαγων ανευ ιδιου κινδυνου 1948"

All with original ribbon. Very to extremely Fine.

*** UPDATE*** I did not find a reverse photo, sorry.  It was listed with a starting bid of 1950. Euros and may not have sold but may have been purchased later outside of the old auction.  I don't know but never see it listed anymore.

Best,

Tim

Edited January 7, 2017 by Tim B

[Daffy Duck]

I am sorry as I am by no means expert in Greek orders, but, I would appreciate if somebody can help me with this one.

It was given to one Yugoslav prominent person in 1953 (Ankara treaty, and later Balkan pact). 
Any clue who manufactured it? I simply don't know how many variations exist, but it looks to me like Spink (the way how the crown is connected to the rest of the cross).

Edited October 20, 2017 by Daffy Duck

[Noor]

Here is my only one attached to the group...

[JapanX]

On 20/10/2017 at 03:18, Daffy Duck said:

I am sorry as I am by no means expert in Greek orders, but, I would appreciate if somebody can help me with this one.

It was given to one Yugoslav prominent person in 1953 (Ankara treaty, and later Balkan pact). 
Any clue who manufactured it? I simply don't know how many variations exist, but it looks to me like Spink (the way how the crown is connected to the rest of the cross).

Arthus Bertrand, Paris.

[Daffy Duck]

Many thanks for clarification!

By the way, he also received Order of the Phoenix (Commander grade) first (Republican) edition made by AB, Paris.

[BalkanCollector]

11 hours ago, Daffy Duck said:

Many thanks for clarification!

By the way, he also received Order of the Phoenix (Commander grade) first (Republican) edition made by AB, Paris.

I know we tend to hide names of recipients of medals in our collection, but is there a possibility you could share his name with us? He was probably a bit famous.