Claudio Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 For sale, here's the description of the medals:1) Preussen, Eisernes Kreuz 1914, 2.Klasse (OEK 1909).2) Deutsches Reich 1870-1918, Kriegsdenkm?nze 1870/71 f?r K?mpfer mit den vier Gefechtsspangen W?rth, Sedan, Villiers und Paris (OEK 1941/4/10/13/24)3) W?rttemberg, Milit?r-Verdienstorden, Ritterkreuz 1914-1918, Chiffre "WR", Gold, (OEK 2967)4) W?rttemberg, Wilhelmskreuz mit Schwertern (OEK 3078)5) Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Frontk?mpferehrenkreuz (OEK 3803)6) W?rttemberg, Orden der W?rttembergischen Krone, Ritterkreuz, Gold (OEK 2938)7) W?rttemberg, Friedrichs-Orden, Ritterkreuz 1.Klasse, Gold (OEK 2980)8) W?rttemberg, Dienstehrenzeichen 1.Klasse, Kreuz f?r 25 Dienstjahre, 1891-1921 (OEK 3089)9) W?rttemberg, Silberne Erinnerungsmedaille zum 25j?hrigen Regierungsjubil?um K?nig Karls, 1889 (OEK 3014)10) Preussen, Centenar-Medaille 1897 (OEK 1965)Eur 3'600.- / USD 4'400.- + Shipping (worldwide at cost)Bank transfer only.Ciao,Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 If this one has NOT yet been identified, it will be possible some day (and I suspect that day will come in 2006) to do so from the WW1 WM3 rolls in von Moser-- as an 1870 veteran retired as an Oberstleutnant (or a very lucky Major) long before 1914, then recalled for the World War AND still alive in 1935. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 And one of the nicest medal bars to come available in about a year.... BUY with confidence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hunter Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 Yea, verily and foresooth!! Magnificent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted April 14, 2006 Author Share Posted April 14, 2006 Thank you for your kind words.The fact that Rick says that one day someone could find the legitimate owner of this medal bar makes it, at least to me, very interesting... I am tempted to keep it! Ciao,Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 (edited) BTW, has anyone ever seen a bar before with KDM 70/71 AND Hindenburg? Wow! A first for me, at least. Edited April 14, 2006 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaW Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 Hello,hmmmm, I think the W?rttemberg, Milit?r-Verdienstorden is not alright. The arms are to big ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Krause Posted April 16, 2006 Share Posted April 16, 2006 I think te bar is completely legit, just a bit "overprussian" to put the KDM 70 in fromt of a WM3.BUT when somebody worries for the WM3, in this case I?m very sure this old recalled guy replaced his 1870 WM3 (old model with crown on the top and the plain blue ribbon) by a "modern one" in the syle of 1914(18.Best regardsDanielP.S. for Rick, I heard the WM3 Roll which will come out have more than "just" Moser in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hunter Posted April 16, 2006 Share Posted April 16, 2006 Something else for you to consider, Claudio, is how easy it will be for you to replace that bar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark M Posted April 16, 2006 Share Posted April 16, 2006 ClaudioVery nice medal bar! It would indeed be very hard to replace.... Unless, he has something to replace it with already?????Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted April 16, 2006 Share Posted April 16, 2006 "...in this case I?m very sure this old recalled guy replaced his 1870 WM3 (old model with crown on the top and the plain blue ribbon) by a "modern one" in the syle of 1914/18."Ahhhhhhhh! I had not considered that!I am still working my way through the Oberstleutnants aD/zD looking for a match.There are a number-- a surprising number!!!!-- of OLD Boys listed getting WM3s in 1912-13 in the 1913 Military Handbook that have got to be--can ONLY be-- delayed awards from 1870. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark M Posted April 17, 2006 Share Posted April 17, 2006 RickCan you explain the logic behind these combination of awards? Here is an officer who did some extensive service time. He participated in the 1870 F/P war, but from the medal bar not enough to earn an 1870 EK2. Somewhere between 1870 and 1914 he earns a MVO, a WK, and a WF3b, 25 yr LS and 1897 Centennial. I assume he would have retired for a period between 1897 and 1914. During the 1914 conflict he is recalled and adds the 1914 EK2 and WKrz, but whatever he did does not warrant the addition of swords to any of his other awards. Shouldn't the award of the EK have at least added the swords to his WF3b? The HK would date the assembly of this bar to sometime after 1934 - 64 years after he entered service putting him in his early to mid eighties. I would assume that this would allow enough time for any late awards to catch up to him. Thanks,Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted April 17, 2006 Author Share Posted April 17, 2006 (edited) @ Mark: Here's a picture taken from the book on Imperial Headgear "Deutsche Offiziershelme aus der Kaiserzeit 1870-1918, Band 1, Joachim Hilsenbeck, Steinach Verlag" (page # 162) of Major Theodor Seible, wearing his medal bar with a KDM 1870-71 (3 clasps) without an Iron Cross 2nd class 1870, with WK3 and WF3a clearly without swords... so I guess my medal bar combination is possible. Maybe the wearer of my bar and Major Seible knew each other, because I strongly believe they had almost the same age and same rank.Ciao,Claudio Edited April 17, 2006 by Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark M Posted April 17, 2006 Share Posted April 17, 2006 ClaudioThank you for the photo. Does it give a date that the photo was taken? Otherwise that might be a pre-war photo.Please understand that I do not doubt the authenticity of your medal bar. To the contrary - if I had the funds available your bar would have been sold weeks agao What I am trying to understand is whether it is feasible for an officer to be recalled to active duty, earn 2 combatant awards but not be eligable to have any of his peacetime awards be upgraded with swords? At the least I would think he would have been eligable to upgrade his Friedrichs Cross. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Krause Posted April 17, 2006 Share Posted April 17, 2006 actually the Wilhelmskreuz WAS his W?rttemberg wartime reward for WW1 service.Not all WW1 guys received plenty of stuff like the celebrities.Best regardsDaniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted April 17, 2006 Share Posted April 17, 2006 "What I am trying to understand is whether it is feasible for an officer to be recalled to active duty, earn 2 combatant awards but not be eligable to have any of his peacetime awards be upgraded with swords? At the least I would think he would have been eligable to upgrade his Friedrichs Cross."As Daniel says, the WilhelmskreuzX indicates some sort of rear service at home-- the guy would have been roughly 70! A number of Landsturm unit commanders were old retirees like this and picked up 1914 EKs. I know of at least one ancient Prussian retread Colonel who got a WW1 Hohenzollern House Order X commanding a Landsturm unit at the front well into his 70s!This combination is entirely plausible for an old officer who either had brief frontline service in the World War and then served at home (I've been checking the suspects on the secret 1917 Home Establishment list of the XIIIth Army Corps) orrrrrrrthat EK2 1914 (and it's not a replaced 1870-- zero sign of the "25" oakleaves that an 1870 would have left) is EQUALLY plausible as one of the 6,8XX bizarre home service NONcombatant "black white" WW1 Iron Crosses 2nd Class-- so he could have gotten BOTH those for home service.There are "ongoing," award adtes shown 1912 and 1913 WM3s listed in my 1913 W?rttemberg Milit?r Handbuch to RETIRED officers who can only have been receiving them for... 1870.So it is also entirely possoble that THIS officer recieved that WM3 during the World War for ACTUAL action over 45 years earlier, in 1914+! (No Prussian award for 1870 and a lifetime later W?rttemberg late one!) I was unaware of such bizarre delays in German Orders being bestowed until I came across the entries in the 1913 WMHB. As an ancient retread in a home service assignment, he would NOT have received the "usual" frontline Orders. The WK3 suggest to me a retired Oberstleutnant, though might have been a lucky Major or an undrachieving Oberst. That's what's taking some trime crossing suspects off the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted April 25, 2006 Author Share Posted April 25, 2006 (edited) No takers for this spectacular medal bar? Strange... These are not going to get any cheaper in the future, that's for sure. It isn't cheap, but still not out of everybody's reach.Ciao,Claudio Edited April 25, 2006 by Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Out of mine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kunsho Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 ...?hhmm...the MVO looks like replaced....all other medals are all fixed with a black thread to tha bar, only the MVO with a white one and in addition it is too far down installed contrary to the other pieces...and michael says that somewhat further above, the arms are too thick...Matthias Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kunsho Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 Meanwhile I know a little bit more about this medal bar: According to a friend of mine this bar was auctioneered by Herrmann - Historica approx. 2 years ago (researchable in the auction catalogues), with the explicit reference that MVO (or WM3) is a modern one. Otherwise this is a beautiful medal bar and in the shown combination a real eye catcher and and an interesting research object.Matthias Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 Hi Kunsho, it was referenced earlier that it had been sold by Hermann Historica. And if anybody is interested in the bar, this should not deter them. While hard to find, the MVO is replaceable. I have one listed elsewhere on the sales forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted April 26, 2006 Author Share Posted April 26, 2006 Stogie,I was looking at yours with interest... but I need one without the case!Ciao,Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 Greetings Kunsho. I'm not so sure I would interpret that to mean that the cross itself is "modern".... perhaps that the cross was replaced in "modern times". I think no comment can be made on the cross itself without much clearer photos.Claudio, if you'd like, I can move the thread into Imperial and you can pop up some better scans of the cross? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted April 26, 2006 Author Share Posted April 26, 2006 Hi Stogie,If you want you can move the thread. However the medal bar is not phisically with me... so I post some largers scans I had on file.Ciao,Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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