Soviet The Order of the Red Banner

[Guest Alanirvine]

Dolf,

I have the records in a large box of over 500 awards and medals that I purchased from 2002 to late 2003.

Just going to take some time to locate.

Alan

Edited May 24, 2006 by Alanirvine

[Dolf]

Most of those "washed" documents appeared more than 5 years ago. This is an "old school technology", so it is no longer used by "black dealers". More recent tactics is to remove the old ink from the paper with a help of a sunlight. The document exposed to direct sun rays for couple of weeks sometimes looks blank. I've seen a Russian dealer who kept several unfolded orderbooks behind his car's windshield. So be aware...

Mondvor,

But by using that "sunlight method", doesn't the paper of the Docs also become kind of sun burned, looking darker, and dry?!

Arghhh, this scam never stops trying to deceive people, anyway!

Thanks for the alert,

Dolf

[Dolf]

Dolf,

I have the records in a large box of over 500 awards and medals that I purchased from 2002 to 2003.

Just going to take some time to locate.

Alan

Alan,

Wow! I see

I try to keep a record on Word, but haven't updated it for some time just have to find the time and patience to copy what I have on paper, also a few hours of "hard" work

Dolf

[Bryan]

Mondvor,

Is it the snowflake you are talking about?

[Guest Alanirvine]

Well, after some searching I finally found the receipt for the RB "group" that I purchased.

Purchased on Jan 30, 2003 on ebay (surprise?). From a Greg _ _ _ _ _ _ in Stockton, California.

Paid $406.00 for the set, so I don't think that I will loose any money on the deal.

Interesting though, in the discription of the group, the seller states that it was "purchased some years ago from "Liverpool Medals" in England"

Alan

[Dolf]

............................................................................................................................................................

Paid $406.00 for the set, so I don't think that I will loose any money on the deal.

............................................................................................................................................................

Alan

Alan,

Absolutely, the Medals alone worth much more than that, so imho it was a good purchase after all.

Dolf

[NavyFCO]

Interesting though, in the discription of the group, the seller states that it was "purchased some years ago from "Liverpool Medals" in England"

Ouch!

Not to knock our dear British friends, but during the 1990s there were a TON of fake groups that were churned out by someone in Britain. I don't know if it was a Russian (it probably was) but at one point, I couldn't find a good Soviet group amongst any major medal dealer - they were THAT pervasive! Unfortunately, all of those have been sold, and re-sold, and re-sold again, so the fact that they were originally from England has all but been lost.

Granted though, the folks who bought the groups back then still did pretty well. I remember turning up my nose at a fake group that included both a real Ushakov AND Nakhimov medal (along with other awards) for a "hefty" $750 USD... Now imagine how much that could bring, even though the group itself was bad!

Andrew (MONDVOR)... Do you think it would be possible for you to do a thread with photos of the fake books you have??? I have always thought of myself as pretty savvy, but I seriously never knew about the snowflake (asterisk) on the CCCP seal till just now! I look forward to it!!!

Dave

[slava1stclass]

Ouch!

Not to knock our dear British friends, but during the 1990s there were a TON of fake groups that were churned out by someone in Britain. I don't know if it was a Russian (it probably was) but at one point, I couldn't find a good Soviet group amongst any major medal dealer - they were THAT pervasive! Unfortunately, all of those have been sold, and re-sold, and re-sold again, so the fact that they were originally from England has all but been lost.

Dave

To all:

I'm aware of at least one dealer in England (of Croatian ancestry) who, in the mid-90s, almost burned a U.S. collector on a ORB 1-7 group alleged to have belonged to Soviet ace Kozhedub. Once research came in, however, the scam came to light. When said dealer refused to offer a refund, the U.S. collector then hired a British barrister and took said dealer before Her Majesty's Court. He won. Said dealer was subsequently banished from OMSA.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[Guest Alanirvine]

Dolf,

Yeah, but the group is much more interesting and I have numerous singles of the same medals.

Yet, I shouldn't complain, it could have been worse and the medals could have been fake! I have a couple of those.

I can see what Andrew was saying, that the booklet looked "washed", but when I first started out, I wasn't so suspicious, there just wasn't as much fake stuff on ebay as there is today.

I have some interesting stories though. I once purchased OGPW # 10,724 shown on PMD book, page 148, same guy I purchased the Motherland, l, ll, & lll from. I did get my money back from him.

The OGPW might be famous, just because it has been around so much.

Alan

Edited May 24, 2006 by Alanirvine

[Wild Card]

?D?ja vu all over again?.

Back several years ago, I bought a Soviet group from Liverpool Medals. When the research came back, it turned out that the pieces were all good, and awarded to different individuals; but the book was, of course, a fraud. Ironically with the research, the value of the medals on their own was about equal to what I had paid for them.

Although, getting my money back turned out to have been more involved and unpleasant than necessary; I will say, in Liverpool?s defense, that they are not expert when it comes to Soviet awards and should stay away from them.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Dolf]

Dolf,

Yeah, but the group is much more interesting and I have numerous singles of the same medals.

Yet, I shouldn't complain, it could have been worse and the medals could have been fake! I have a couple of those.

............................................................................................................................................................

Alan

Alan,

Yeah, I know what you mean, it would be much more interesting if the Group was a real one, but as you say the awards could be fake too so after all it was a good (financially speaking) purchase, in the sense that if you decide to resell the Medals now you may still recover enough money to buy yourself a nice real Group, or at least help pay part of it

Now, I can also imagine how disappointed one must feel after having an alledged Group for years and finding now that in fact it was a fake group with a fake doc!

Arghhh, damn scam abounding on this hobby

Best wishes,

Dolf

[Dolf]

Dolf,

............................................................................................................................................................

I have some interesting stories though. I once purchased OGPW # 10,724 shown on PMD book, page 148, same guy I purchased the Motherland, l, ll, & lll from. I did get my money back from him.

The OGPW might be famous, just because it has been around so much.

Alan

Alan,

Sending you a PM about this.

Dolf

[Dolf]

............................................................................................................................................................

I will say, in Liverpool?s defense, that they are not expert when it comes to Soviet awards and should stay away from them.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Wild Card,

I agree 100% with you on that one!

I've occasionally bought some stuff from them, but in most cases not Soviet awards! And certainly not Groups! In fact I guess I've only got one or two single Soviet pieces from them. It's obvious (starting with the way they most of the time wrongly describe them!) they know nothing about this kind of awards! The usual lack of good pictures is also very annoying

Dolf

Edited May 24, 2006 by Dolf

[Mondvor]

Mondvor,

But by using that "sunlight method", doesn't the paper of the Docs also become kind of sun burned, looking darker, and dry?!

Arghhh, this scam never stops trying to deceive people, anyway!

Thanks for the alert,

Dolf

Alan,

Of course by using "sunlight method" paper would suffer to some extend. BTW, it would become lighter, not darker. But ink would be removed in much faster rate. So after some time you will get blank orderbook which is somewhat lighter (or more pale) than normal orderbook. Not many people would pay attention on that fact. Even if you compare normal orderbooks without "sunburn" you will see that intensivity (contrast) of greyish-bluish-greenish pattern of the orderbook is not the same for different documents. It depends on how many paint was put in a machine during printing.

[Mondvor]

Mondvor,

Is it the snowflake you are talking about?

Right, exactly.

[Mondvor]

Andrew (MONDVOR)... Do you think it would be possible for you to do a thread with photos of the fake books you have??? I have always thought of myself as pretty savvy, but I seriously never knew about the snowflake (asterisk) on the CCCP seal till just now! I look forward to it!!!

Dave

Dave,

Of course if you are interested I can post all fake orderbooks on the forum. I can do that later in the evening because I'm on my job right now and I don't have access to my files. BTW many of them filled with identical handwriting. I bet they were made by the same person...

[ALEX.S]

HI

very interesting order of red banner type 2 , that i bought for my collection.

enjoy

alex

[Gerd Becker]

Ahhh, i know that one. Very interesting placement of the mint mark!

Nice one, Alex. Thanks for posting it here

[Alfred]

Hello Gerd,

today my new Red Banner with s/n: 90.392 was in the mail.

An interesting piece, it seems that the awardee converted it to screwback and somebody

converted it back. There are traces of an rotating brush and some old solder on the back.

To the serial number and the mint mark it seems to be a Red Banner produced in

Krasnodar mint. The word DWOR ist bigger stamped than MONETNUII.

According to Mondvor it is Typ 3 Variant 2 Subvariant 1 from serial number range

~ 84.000 to ~118.000.

The size is 45,56 mm high (ring to the two pins at the bottom) and 36,97 wide.

Weight withiut suspension is 23,5 gramm.

regards

Andreas

[Gerd Becker]

Nice, Andreas, it has a lot of character. I would agree, its a Subvariation 1. Are you going to get research for it?

best,

Gerd

[Gerd Becker]

This came in last week from our Stogieman. Thanks, Rick, lovely piece

[Eric Gaumann]

This came in last week from our Stogieman.

Sheesh, another one Gerd? wow

How many are you up to now if you don't mind my asking?

[Gerd Becker]

Sheesh, another one Gerd? wow

How many are you up to now if you don't mind my asking?

There are so many variations, Eric I have 8 Red Banners now. One screwback and 7 on suspension.

[Paul R]

Here are mine thus far. About 99 percent of my stuff came from Igor in the early 90s! I got it at a good price because some of the enamal was replaced or fixed.

Here is my screw back example

The research on mine screwback example is enroute... I am so excited!!!!

[Gerd Becker]

The research on mine screwback example is enroute... I am so excited!!!!

Great!!! Can?t wait to see the results This one came in today. A very nice piece with probably 99% of the gilding preserved and perfect enamel. Damn, this thing looks pretty in hand... Thanks, Jeff