Hello from Austria

[StefanK.]

Dear gentlemen,

 

i have been a member of this forum for many years but I was never really active. I started to collect austro-hungarian empire some years ago and appreciate that the forum offers a section for people with an interest in that topic. I would like to contribute once in a while and stay in contact with people with similar interests. I am also always looking to add some new things to my collection.

 

Many greetings and have fun collecting,

Stefan

[gjw]

Thanks so much for posting some of your wonderful pieces.  Very impressive! 

 

Thanks again and please post more of your gems.

 

Best Regards 

 

Greg 

[graham]

Great collection, thanks for showing. Military Order of Maria Theresa!!! Is it an original?

[Graf]

Great collection, thanks for showing.

[StefanK.]

On 09/02/2023 at 00:26, graham said:

Great collection, thanks for showing. Military Order of Maria Theresa!!! Is it an original?

It should be! It is an unmarked piece from the late 1850s/early 1860s in a case of Gebr. Resch.

[graham]

Thanks. Wonderful piece with its case.

[Elmar Lang]

Hello, 

thank you for sharing the pictures of your fine pieces.

I'm from Italy, but since decades I collect Imperial Austrian awards. 

I see a beautiful, early KD Leopold Orden in its proper case, with early maker's mark of Rothe... 

The MMTO looks very interesting too... 

[tifes]

Hi,

nice collection indeed. MMTO in Gebruder Resch case would be strange as this company never produced any MMTO (at least it´s not known). Cross made in late 1850s/1860s would be probably of Rothe manufacture, although still without hallmarks and probably also maker´s mark. Without close-up pics it is hard to tell.  

 

Best,

 

t. 

[StefanK.]

Enclosed you can see further pictures of the MMTO. It is made of gold and is unmarked. The case bears a retial marking of a dealer named Carl Lönhart of Prague, who dealt with orders, medals, uniform-ecquitpment and other stuff like loileteries. According the company registers it existed until 1870 but quite certaily it stopped active business in 1863 as it had economic problems. The company appears under the name "Zum General(en) Clam Gallas" in the late 1850's/early 1860's, mainly because of selling military stuff. Below the retail marking one can recognize an oval blue circle. In terms of color and appearance (see photo) it fits to the marking of Gebr. Resch that was used until 1863. Consequently the piece must be prior to that year.

According to the former owner the piece belonged to an officer who earned the MMTO in Solferino. According to my investigations his regiment was deployed in Prague after 1859 until the mid 1860's, so it is quite plausible that the man bought that piece directly from that retailer.

more photos.

Comparison of the Resch-markings:

 

The second photo from the Heeresgeschichtlichen Museum also shows the Resch marking below the retail marking, so it is prabably that Lönhart was supplied by Resch in general.

please let me know what you think about my investigations/ theses

[Carlo]

1 hour ago, StefanK. said:

Enclosed you can see further pictures of the MMTO. It is made of gold and is unmarked. The case bears a retial marking of a dealer named Carl Lönhart of Prague, who dealt with orders, medals, uniform-ecquitpment and other stuff like loileteries. According the company registers it existed until 1870 but quite certaily it stopped active business in 1863 as it had economic problems. The company appears under the name "Zum General(en) Clam Gallas" in the late 1850's/early 1860's, mainly because of selling military stuff. Below the retail marking one can recognize an oval blue circle. In terms of color and appearance (see photo) it fits to the marking of Gebr. Resch that was used until 1863. Consequently the piece must be prior to that year.

According to the former owner the piece belonged to an officer who earned the MMTO in Solferino. According to my investigations his regiment was deployed in Prague after 1859 until the mid 1860's, so it is quite plausible that the man bought that piece directly from that retailer.

more photos.

Comparison of the Resch-markings:

 

The second photo from the Heeresgeschichtlichen Museum also shows the Resch marking below the retail marking, so it is prabably that Lönhart was supplied by Resch in general.

please let me know what you think about my investigations/ theses

A truly magnificent piece, and a very well done research!!

[tifes]

Hallo Stefan,

 

thank you for sharing.  What I see on provided photos: 1.) beautiful  MMTO-knight of very early Rothe manufacture, which corresponds to the info that you have got from previous owner, late 1850s/early 1860s...and thus Solferino is very likely.   Congrats! 2.) "Zum General(en) Clam Gallas" was something like re-seller. I doubt that he produced any decorations. He just purchased it from another party, put "the sticker" on it (kind of publicity) and sold it. I have something very similar from him, with private purchased MVK/KD (3rd class, 2nd model about 1860) inside the case, like in HGM. Being honest, it was a mystery for me too because there is no evidence that G. Resch produced MVKs either. Your case is original for MMTO, I have no doubts about it but Gebrueder Resch never made any MMTO, which is basically sure fact. And that moves it on...

 

Possible thesis: G. Resch made during its short active period (early 1860s, then moved to Bucharest) also, except known pieces (FJO, GVK/mdK), just cases for various decorations for other companies that he never produced. Any additional thoughts? 

 

Regards,

 

Tomas
 

 

 

[StefanK.]

Hello Tomas, thank you for your input! Last year when I was in Prage, I tried to find the former location of Carl Lönharth (Zum Generalen Clam Gallas) but since the houses were re-numbered I was not sure if I found the right building. Undoubtfully it was located near the palace Clam Gallas. Enclosed I post two advertisements of that seller.

[Farkas]

Lovely collection, I’ve nothing KuK still boxed, i may need to rectify that.

 

... & more great information Gents. 👍

 

tony

 

 

[farmer]

On 14/02/2023 at 21:18, tifes said:

Hallo Stefan,

 

thank you for sharing.  What I see on provided photos: 1.) beautiful  MMTO-knight of very early Rothe manufacture, which corresponds to the info that you have got from previous owner, late 1850s/early 1860s...and thus Solferino is very likely.   Congrats! 2.) "Zum General(en) Clam Gallas" was something like re-seller. I doubt that he produced any decorations. He just purchased it from another party, put "the sticker" on it (kind of publicity) and sold it. I have something very similar from him, with private purchased MVK/KD (3rd class, 2nd model about 1860) inside the case, like in HGM. Being honest, it was a mystery for me too because there is no evidence that G. Resch produced MVKs either. Your case is original for MMTO, I have no doubts about it but Gebrueder Resch never made any MMTO, which is basically sure fact. And that moves it on...

 

Possible thesis: G. Resch made during its short active period (early 1860s, then moved to Bucharest) also, except known pieces (FJO, GVK/mdK), just cases for various decorations for other companies that he never produced. Any additional thoughts? 

 

Regards,

 

Tomas
 

 

 

Tomas,  Resch in Bucarest (Romania) is most likely different person. Lorenz Resch did move from Vienna to Brasov and then later to Bucharest where he and his brother founded their jewelery business around 1837 (and carried on until around 1945 with four generations of jewelers-  who also made orders, medals and decorations but not in the early years of their existance).

[tifes]

Hi Farmer,

 

"Gebrueder Resch" was a jewellery company based in Vienna, at Kohlmarkt. They produced high quality decorations like Franz-Joseph Order´s decorations (knight and commanders/GK crosses and breast stars) as well as Merit Crosses with or without crown in Gold and Silver, but also Military Merit Crosses (earlier versions,very scarce). Company was active in years 1864-1876.

 

It´s generally believed that it moved to Romania afterwards, because there are not any further pieces made by Resch in Austria-Hungary after above-mentioned period, but they are in Romania. So it´s very interesting what you are saying. Coincidence of name and two different jewelers? it might be! There would be just one question left...what happened with Viennese "Gebrueder Resch" after 1876?      

 

Regards,

 

Tomas

[StefanK.]

17 hours ago, tifes said:

Company was active in years 1864-1876.

That is not true. The company "Gebrüder Resch" was founded on March 1st 1854 by Lorenz Resch, who was a gold- and clocksmith, and his brother, Josef Resch. The procurator was Ludwig Wolf. The company was situated near the famous cafè Daum at Kohlmarkt 262 and moved to Kohlmarkt 8 in around 1863/1864. It is stated that the company made all of the famous orders of the monarchy and was listed as a Hofjuwelier. Josef Resch left the company in 1868. Lorenz Resch also founded a clock factory in Vienna in 1862 and moved to Ebensee afterwards, where he continued his business as a clock manufacturer. He died in 1872 at the age of 60. The clock manufactory was active until 1901 when it was sold to Junghans. In 1885 the factory produced around 12.000-15.000 clocks avery year.

 

 

Quote

Gebrueder Resch never made any MMTO, which is basically sure fact.

on what evidence is this claim based?

Edited October 4, 2023 by StefanK.

[tifes]

Hi,

 

the first sales catalogue, which also included the decorations, appeared after the establishment of the shop on Kohlmarkt in 1864 and the last one in 1876. All of the important order makers like Rothe or Mayers were jewellers and goldsmiths who also made watches, jewellery and bijoux. Rothe existed on this production until the early 1990s. And Zimbler, for example, originally made tinware. But that's not important from a phaleristic point of view. The Gebrüder Resch decorations that are known were FJO and VK. I personally have in my collection a MVK/KD etui for the 2nd model (1860-1866) with "Gebrüder Resch" signature on the inner part of the lid. There is also a corresponding MVK/KD in the etui, but I can't confirm it's GB production. In any case, GB made boxes so decorations probably too. Other decorations from other orders "departments", including MMTO, of GB production are not known. The "claim", as you stated it above, is then based on empirical induction. 

 

Regards, 

 

T. 

[StefanK.]

A sure fact is not the same as an empirical induction because the latter is always susceptible for wrong conclusions. So is your assertion that Resch was established only in 1864 - based on the "first" catalogue (how can someone say that a certain catalogue is the first, after 160 years?). Well, official austrian records reveal that the year I mentioned above is the real year of establishment of Gebrüder Resch.

 

PS: I personally doubt that Mayer or Rothe made watches.

3 hours ago, tifes said:

Other decorations from other orders "departments", including MMTO, of GB production are not known.

 

 

now you know one.

[tifes]

Dear Stefan, 

I see that from polite conversation you trespassed to toxic one. Please do not mix it up with some FB. This is serious forum. However, I think that I know the reason. Anyway, I wrote about production years of GB concerning only the decorations, based on the catalogues containing them. Earlier or later catalogues of this company simply do not have them listed. If GB made golden watches or jewellery in 1850s, it was not a object of this discussion. We are talking here about decorations not general antiquities. 

 

Well, I see ellipsoid suspension with "Gebr. RESCH" engraved. It would be lovely to see the rest, because as we all know, the devil is hidden in the details. In the recent past I should have seen MMTO Commander Cross of FM Borojević von Bojna and guess what...I did not... 

 

Regards, 

 

T. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by tifes
Typo

[StefanK.]

Hello Tomas,

I really would like to apologize because I don‘t want to create any „toxic environment“, as you stated. But after reading my contributions once more, I really do not know what to apologize for. You claimed something that was wrong and I clarified it by providing some official state records. No personal attacks, just facts. I think it is you that creates confusion and a toxic environment, because you claim things as if they were facts without providing any proofs. I really would like to see

1) the catalogues you are talking about

2) a watch or clock produced by Rothe

3) a watch or clock produced by Mayer.

You state that certain products of Resch „are not known“. What does that mean? Are they not known by Mr. Tomas or the entirety of the collectors-community of austro-hungarian medals and decorations? If the first case is true, I would kindly ask you to reconsider your expressions in a public forum and say „are not known by me“ in order not create any confusions. 

I agree, it is a serious forum. We should stick to the topics. So I ask you: Why are you approaching private conversations between you and me here in public? Is this what you call serious?

I am here to learn, to share and to know others with the same interests. So i want to come back to the topic and talk about the investigations I made about Resch: Itis quite easy to reveal that Resch produced before the date you stated (1864). Just look at the labels Resch used. The address Kohlmarkt 262 was used only until 1863/1864. Later the company moved to Kohlmarkt 8. Consequently the products/ cases that are labelled with „Kohlmarkt 262“ must date back before that year, between 1854 and 1863/1864.

 

greetings, Stefan

[Carlo]

10 hours ago, StefanK. said:

You state that certain products of Resch „are not known“. What does that mean? Are they not known by Mr. Tomas or the entirety of the collectors-community of austro-hungarian medals and decorations? If the first case is true, I would kindly ask you to reconsider your expressions in a public forum and say „are not known by me“ in order not create any confusions. 

 

This is certainly a good point of view, also because when talking about personal knowledge you cannot think you know everything.
Many years have passed since the production of these decorations and certainly only a few of them have reached the present day.
I too thought that Resch production was limited to a few prestigious decorations and in precious materials, until I found (by chance) a service cross with the Resch mark, which I personally thought was impossible having never seen any and being a decoration usually made of bronze which is certainly not an expensive material.
Since then I have started to discuss and ask for information from the more experts in order to expand my knowledge on the subject, and this topic is the proof.

 

Greetings

 

Carlo

[Farkas]

Hello Gents,

I don’t know anything about the finer details of the things i admire, I’m in awe of those that are, like yourselves... so to hear disagreements is strangely comforting 😊

but i do know words seldom convey quite what was meant, and how it was meant, when they are written not spoken, read not heard...

 

tony 🍻💕

 

 

 

 

🤷‍♂️ Because...

Everyone loves a good belt ‘thing’!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tifes]

Hi Stefan,

„Among the most important manufacturers of the first production period were the Viennese company Alexander Kittner and, from the 1860s, the Joseph Resch company. “ - courtesy translation; Ludwigstorff/Ortner, Österreichs Orden und Ehrenzeichen, Part I/ Volume II, Der kaiserliche-österreichische Franz Joseph-Orden, page 292

I suppose that's not enough for you, but in the meantime, as your post came up, while I was at a militaria show in Germany and had the opportunity and honor (as always) to meet one of the greatest experts of Austrian orders, Mr. Rochowanski. He owned phaleristic shop in very downtown of Vienna (closed some years ago) and he had original and reprinted versions of old catalogues, including Resch, dated from 1864-1876, which contained orders. I had a chance to see them some 10 years ago. He confirmed the dates as peak of Gebr.Resch production (quoted also in Ludwigstorff/Ortner book), but he also advised me to look into “Fabrikanten” book (the same sources as you quoted here) for more precision as it could be a bit sooner. So, I did and he was right (as always). Gebr, Resch was established in 1853 and till 1857 he is stated only as “holder of stock of jewelry, gold and silver ware”, but since 1858 there is a new statement “delivery of all decorations of k.k. FJO for k.k. Lord Chamberlain's Office”, which basically means that 1858 is the year when (only) FJO production by Gebr. Resch started. So here I was obviously wrong and I apologize sincerely, but there is no proof that orders production started immediately after the company was set up in 1853 either. There is another fact confirmed, which was discussed here. Gebr. Resch had its branch in Romania, Bucharest. 

1857:

1858:

 

Gebr. Resch company was kuk Kammer-Juweliere (Chamber Jeweller) till 1876.

 

 

In year 1877, Gebr. Resch is not listed anymore and it´s replaced by Mayer´s. This is generally considered as the end of its orders production. After this date Gebr. Resch is not figuring as the orders maker anymore. 

 

 

Facts, which you can verify here: https://alex.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/alex?aid=shb&size=45

In Dorotheum there are antiquity auctions held couple of times a year, with many gold and silver products from Rothe and Mayers. Please scroll it over, if you want. I am really not going to look in dozens of catalogues for some table clock (Rothe did not have own mechanism, but was doing “cases”), doses or vases or I don’t know what else.  

However, my primary reaction was at this very daring statement:

On 04/10/2023 at 20:21, StefanK. said:

 It is stated that the company made all of the famous orders of the monarchy and was listed as a Hofjuwelier.

 

Where is it stated?

All (underlined!) means everything, right? Golden Fleece, StSO, LO, EKO, FJO + maybe also others (Elisabeth-Orden, Sternkreuzorden…). And no, "…are not known” doesn’t mean that some “Mr. Tomas” didn’t see them in his life and yes, it means the second, they are not known for the community. There is a book, which I quoted at the beginning, 6 volumes in 3 parts. It took 15 years for dr. Ludwigstorff to put it together. Of course, it´s not perfect but generally it´s considered a very important reference book. Right? He had access to HGM, Schatzkammer deposits and to the collection of all (only) Austrians important collectors. Displayed Gebr. Resch decorations in all these 6 books are FJO decorations (badges of knights, commander/GK + breast stars), EKO III so called “transition type” (“dickes Huhn”; about 1860/1865) and Merit Crosses. There is also a box for MVK earlier type (I have it too), but there is no proof that Gebr. Resch made MVK too (as other companies like Braun). But even if. And that´s pretty much all. Where are the others? Rothe which made indeed almost all decorations at the turn of centuries, employed 160 specialists only in the orders department. Gebr.Resch never reached this capacity and thus it wasn´t even possible. As I wrote above “inductive reasoning based on the empirical experience”. How likely is that the whole and entire HGM, Schatzkammer and Austrian collectors community do not have one single piece of MMTO, StSO or LO made by Gebr. Resch, but “Mr. Stefan” thinks different, showing us some picture (without any further context) with pretty cunning and by all means no toxic statement:

On 05/10/2023 at 16:24, StefanK. said:

now you know one.

Regards,

 

Tomas

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by tifes

[Christian1962]

I had opportunity to talk with Georg Ludwigstorff yesterday. He told me that he examined hundreds of MMTO crosses for his and Christian Ortner´s book. There wasn't one piece produced by Gebrüder Resch. In his eyes it is most probably that they sold a piece of other origin and engraved their own companies name.

 

Regards

Christian

[Elmar Lang]

I don't have the experience of Dr. Ludwigstorff of course, but I've had the opportunity to see many pieces of the MMTO in all its classes, and from the origins to 1918 (and later...), besides the few pieces I humbly own of this Order, in my collection.

 

Messrs. Resch were extremely skilled jewelers, working at the highest level and quality and I think that they wouldn't have put their maker's signature on a piece of which they would have been just retailers.

 

This cross doesn't resemble the manufacture of any other maker of orders whose activity could have been known in the 1840-1860 period, from whom Resch could have ordered the making of a piece.

 

I can conclude that not existing a proof that this cross wasn't made by Resch, reading their engraved signature to the ring's inside, suggests that the piece was actually made by the then well-known firm from Kohlmarkt, Vienna.

 

Best wishes,

 

E.L.