Mongolia So... the hype is over?

[Ed_Haynes]

Or the Mongolian State Vault is now called the "Ed Haynes Residence" - when are you going to share all the goodies you've picked up on your travels - whether awards or simply more information!

When I get back . . .

[Ed_Haynes]

. . . when are you going to share all the goodies you've picked up on your travels - whether awards or simply more information!

Some has been shared, some will soon be shared, some may take longer to share.

I will say that the forum seems to have gone quiet, with many previously regular contributors gone away. Off on late summer holidays, or . . . ??

Not interested in making this a monologue . . . .

[rboomsma]

Indeed. Virtually nothing left on eBay and am also experiencing trouble getting items which I acquired via eBay several weeks ago from the typical sellers (not getting invoice, no mail contact despite repeated reminders, items not being delivered). World has certainly changed the from 6-9 months ago.

Hello Bob

Yes they seemed to have disappeared the regular sellers on ebay from mongolia. Go to Alexei, he seems to have a good supplier now and his prices are more than fair.

Edited August 16, 2006 by rboomsma

[Ed_Haynes]

Maybe Bob is right.

Maybe the "hype" is over?

Maybe everyone has lost interest in Mongolian awards?

The absolute, reverberating, deafening silence on this forum would suggest that.

That's OK. To make space, just send all those "de-hyped", now-uninteresting, Mongolian doo-dads to me. They will find a loving home.

[Dolf]

Dear Ed,

I suppose there are a few reasons to explain this, among them:

-I believe the number of Mongolian awards collectors is really small if compared with any others

-Most of these collectors (including me) already have in their collections most of the types, variations, sub-variations etc, of those awards that they are interested in

-The supply has substantialy dried-up, even from those more important in the source suppliers

-AFAIK almost nothing really interesting has showed up recently (apart a couple of exceptions like that ORCB #4, S/N5 that you got) either on eBay or even from the two well known Western dealers

These are just a few reasons that come to my mind. Obviously I could be wrong.

A couple of new sellers recently started selling on eBay, an old one returned, but apparently nothing really interesting for a non-beginner.

I would add that in my case I just can't afford those few items I'd still love to have in my collection, even if they were available!

So if no news, no new interesting additions, what to post?...

(Notice that I still have a few Friendship Badges to post in the thread you created for these, but being busy with other stuff lately, and anyway that is old peanuts stuff, nothing really fancy...)

Just my two tugriks,

Dolf

[rboomsma]

Dear Ed,

I suppose there are a few reasons to explain this, among them:

-I believe the number of Mongolian awards collectors is really small if compared with any others

-Most of these collectors (including me) already have in their collections most of the types, variations, sub-variations etc, of those awards that they are interested in

-The supply has substantialy dried-up, even from those more important in the source suppliers

-AFAIK almost nothing really interesting has showed up recently (apart a couple of exceptions like that ORCB #4, S/N5 that you got) either on eBay or even from the two well known Western dealers

Dolf

I think Doilf is right. I have mostly what I want, there are still a few more I want but no money for it at this time.

Maybe next year I will add a few items, but thats it for me. For now

[Eric Schena]

Hi all:

It's been a while since I've posted in the Mongolian section but I know the reason why I stopped was due to rapidly rising prices of Mongolian orders. By the time the prices start to go a little too high for my comfort level, I managed to put together a decent, albeit rather small, representative collection of decorations. I would have loved to have gotten a screwback Sukhebataar or some of the earlier Red Banners, but I love what I have. I hope prices will start to head south a little and I'll pick up a few more things (when I'm not going after Albanian decorations).

Cheers,

Eric

[Ed_Haynes]

Just make sure you finish your own Albanian collection before you take your book public. Imagine what it will do to that field!!

Having a good reference and a stock emerging from the central bank in Ulanbaatar conjoined to make a bubble. For the type collectors, it is passing.

Yet, given the small numbers awarded (just over 2,000 Sukhbaatars as opposed to some 460,000 Lenins), I doubt things will drop too far, especially if/when research becomes an option.

[Stogieman]

I can't imagine the interest will wain... these pieces are amongst the most beautiful enamel out on the market, of any period/era... what's not to like..??

[Bob]

I've also come back on this... the hype may be over, but so is the strong supply of quality pieces.

I think it's time to introduce the "Sukhbaatar" index... I predict that by end of this year you'll be looking at paying 3.000 USD if you want to purchase one from one of the western dealers.

Why? Because apparently currently dealers wishing to replenish their stock from Mongolian sources apparently need to pay around 1.800 USD for an SB.

[Ed_Haynes]

I've also come back on this... the hype may be over, but so is the strong supply of quality pieces.

I think it's time to introduce the "Sukhbaatar" index... I predict that by end of this year you'll be looking at paying 3.000 USD if you want to purchase one from one of the western dealers.

Why? Because apparently currently dealers wishing to replenish their stock from Mongolian sources apparently need to pay around 1.800 USD for an SB.

True, perhaps. But, to quote myself:

. . . just over 2,000 Sukhbaatars as opposed to some 460,000 Lenins . . . .

While the collecting base is smaller than for Soviet stuff, the quality of Mongolian stuff is higher. Go figure.

[Ed_Haynes]

Just following up on this last thought, I have been playing some comparative numbers games, looking at the current estimated total award numbers of Mongolian awards and comparing them to their closest Soviet "cousins". While there have been significantly fewer Mongolian awards ever "out there", I'd suggest that there are even fewer "out there" in captivity and in collector circulation. Yet there are (so far) fewer serious phalerists who study and collect Mongolian awards than there are for Soviet awards. (Good!)

Nevertheless, some comparisons are useful. When you wonder "how 'rare' is this Mongolian award?", the total numbers awards are part of the answer, and it is interesting to see how they compare to Soviet numbers (taken from the Red Bible, as it is close at hand). I am ignoring the early, rare, mostly exchanged versions and concentrating on the common, plain, recent awards.

Hero of the Mongolian People's Republic

This is a hard one to gague. There were approximately 41 awarded, indcluding replacement awards for the first type badge. This would put it somewhere between the Order of Victory (14 awards) and the first suspension-style Suvorov 1st class (108 awards). The direct analogue, the Hero of the Soviet Union, was awarded some 12,000 times.

Hero of Labor of the MPR

Also not an easy one. It has been awarded around 400 times. This places it in the same range as the Bogdan Khmelnitsky 1st class (~ 400 awards). The Hero of Socialist Labor was awarded some 20,000 times!

Sukhbaatar Order

Awarded around 2,000 times, this compares to the Suvorov 2nd class (~ 3,000) or Kutuzov 2nd class (~ 3,400).

Order of the Red Banner of Military Valor (I am using Battushig's translations)

Awarded around 6,000 times, this compares roughly with the Kutuzov 3rd class (~ 8,000).

Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor

Awarded around 10,000 times, this compares closely with the Bogdan Khmelnitsky 3rd class (~ 10,000).

Order of Combat Valor

Also awarded around 10,000 times, this also compares with the Bogdan Khmelnitsky 3rd class (~ 10,000).

Order of the Polar Star

Awarded some 40,000 times, this compares to the Alexander Nevsky (~ 49,000).

Order of Mother Heroine, 1st class

Awarded some 60,000 times, this common award is hard to compare, but falls between the Order of the October Revolution (~ 110,000) and the Alexander Nevsky (~ 49,000).

Order of Mother Heroine, 2nd class

Awarded some 210,000 times, this common award compares with the Order of the Patriotic War 1st class (~ 312,000 times, ignoring the 1985 awards).

Honorary Medal of Combat

Awarded 25,000 times, this is close to the Hero of Socialist Labor (~ 20,000 awards).

Honorary Medal of Labor

Also awarded 25,000 times, this too is close to the Hero of Socialist Labor (~ 20,000 awards).

Medal for Unselfishness

Awarded around 1,000 times, this is half the number of awards of the Bogdan Khmelnitsky 2nd class (~ 2,000) and closer to the Kutuzov 1st class (~ 900 awards).

Numbers aren't the whole story, of course, and the inability (so far) to research Mongolian awards plays a role in "value".

Yet, you can compare the site of a prominent New Jersey dealer who has undocumented and unresearched Alexander Nevskys at $1250 and $1995 (~ 49,000 awards) and Polar Stars (~ 40,000 awards) ranging from $475 (Mongolian obverse) to $54 (silver pinback). The same dealer shows Bogdan Khmelnitsky 3rd class awards at $3900 and $3550, while the Order of Combat Valor (also awarded around 10,000 times) comes in at $380. He has an unresearched Suvorov 2nd class at $14,800; what would the price be for an also-issued-around-2000-specimens Subhbaatar? But, in these cases, which are "rarer"?

Simple supply and demand? Or reasons not to whine over rising prices?

Something to think about . . . ???

(And, as a footnote, those who think there is no more "good stuff" to be had obviously haven't looked at some of my recent posts on this forum.)

Edited August 31, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Vatjan]

(And, as a footnote, those who think there is no more "good stuff" to be had obviously haven't looked at some of my recent posts on this forum.)

Hmm, considering the relative low numbers of "good stuff" awarded, and the fact that these turn up in your posts, logically leads me to conclude there is no more good stuff to be had for the rest of us

Keep 'em coming Ed

Edited August 31, 2006 by Vatjan

[Ed_Haynes]

Once again, you have to wonder . . . .

I have continued to post here, trying to build a database of images to supplement Battushig's book. But it begins to feel like speaking in a monologue to echoes in an otherwise empty room. I know that a number of our former stalwarts have fallen silently away, some have left Mongolian collecting entirely, others just seem to have vanished from the forum.

It seems that, for Mongolian phaleristics, the transition from magpie-style type collecting to a mature collecting field may have been an insurmoutable hurdle? It may not be so much a problem of "hype", but one of serious and sustained interest? Maybe soyombos can't stand up to swastikas?

Is this forum alive, or is it just me? This had held promise of being the #1 site on Mongolian phaleristics, but maybe no one cares anymore?

I have been trying to sustain life and interest here, but shall quite probably be slowing down my postings. If I seem to be wandering somewhere between curious, confused, and depressed, it may just be because I am.

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think when the forum was new... everyone rushed to post their goodies. now settled in for the longrun it will be slooow and hopefully steady. Folks cannot post the same stuff once a week to keep up traffic.

Its a bit like woman... you get more "uhum" from them in the first few moths than you do over the next few years... but what the hell, its still nice to have someone who washesyour socks in the long run.

[Eric Gaumann]

I think when the forum was new... everyone rushed to post their goodies. now settled in for the long run it will be slooow and hopefully steady. Folks cannot post the same stuff once a week to keep up traffic.

Its a bit like woman... you get more "uhum" from them in the first few moths than you do over the next few years... but what the hell, its still nice to have someone who washes your socks in the long run.

Too true, the first *and* the last.

In any event I check in here every day or two, if only to check the lasted Ed-updated thread. Sadly, being a neophyte I have little to contribute.

But the good news (?) is that I'm sockin' away some cash for a Red Banner (Combat or Labour, dunno which one yet) due mainly to the knowledge I've aquired here.

[Stogieman]

I think the hype will not be over, we'll just see adjustments in pricing in the long run as I cannot imagine some of what is asked to be sustainable. Apart from the financial considerations, the scope and quality of Mongolian offerings will keep collectors busy for a very, very long time...

[Vatjan]

I think I know how you feel Ed, I tried to get people interested in Mongolian on other fora, at collector's meetings, no one was really listening.

Then there was,...euh...well "here", and a great exchange of knowledge happened.

But all the knowledge I painstakingly gathered over several years of collecting was "shared" within a couple of weeks, don't get me wrong that was a good thing.

Knowledge needs to be shared.

Now knowledge is still painstakingly gathered, but the process is much slower, especially since we know already quite a few things, types and variations are mostly identified, dates deciphered, a certain awarding chronology established, okay okay Polar stars excluded

Knowledge gaps exist for the rarer awards, but mainly because they are...rare, they will not easily be filled seeing how much one has to pay to add one to one's collection, let alone own several to be able to compare.

I was already running out of affordable options to further my collection, when the following hype exploded even some of the affordable badges suddenly became very expensive. I think I paid 200 US for my KGB badge, and I would have loved to buy a few more, but not at current prices.

So financial considerations have dramatically slowed down my mongolian collection train, I still cherish what I have, but is has been ages since I added something.

Ed, I for one immensely appreciate the effort you make to keep posting all those wonderful goodies, even though I do not reply in these threads, because I have unfortunately nothing to add.

I do hope we will have some research possibilities soon, as I am sure that would bring life back into this forum, which by the way, is still the number one place for Mongolian OMD's.

Just my two tugruks

Jan

[Bob]

I guess I wasn't far off with the 3K for an SB prediction by end of this year.

Anyway, haven't posted much in recent months for a number of reasons:

- fewer purchases (not much coming available which I am very interested in + what is tends to be quite expensive)

- what I did acquire was not "new" to the forum anyway

- spent much more time / $ on Albanian awards

I agree, research will be an exciting new trigger for this forum. For me, I've slowly decided to focus myself though and stop the slippery slope I was on of the Mongolian badges:)

When I return from vacation, I will in fact - first time in a long time - get my shoeboxes full of awards out and unpack everything for a thorough review... will see if - with more knowledge now - I spot any interesting new things on old items and post them here.

[Bob]

Anybody else still left?

[fjcp]

Anybody else still left?

Just got back from a rather special little vacation but I'm still here ....

I saw your post in the udarnik thread and I'll add a few docs myself a little later.

It's just so hard to find really good pieces. How I long for the good old days!!!!

[Bob]

Hey - better to be "hungry" for new things than to get all blase and think "oh no, not another Polar Star" After all, the "hunt" is half the fun

[Ed_Haynes]

Welcome back! Yeah, things are more than a little quiet!

Maybe some change soon . . . .

[Vatjan]

Yes, still around, though nothing new to show nor any new info to offer, alas

Jan

[Guest Rick Research]

There's always the dry, dusty, plodding, long distance thrill of research.

There was some hope that Mongolian Archives research was going to be available this year-- that on the back burner, hope for 2008?