Gordon Craig

Thanks for letting me know about the article and the offer to copy and send it to me. I appreciate that very much. I'll PM you with my mailing address. I was aware of the ZASaG but didn't put anything in this thread about it. I'd be very interested in the structure of pastoral care in the BW to day. Regards, Gordon

jules118, I tried following your link but I was unable to open anything from it. Perhaps you are referring to the past sale of these medals on the emedals site? If so, these medals can be found here; https://www.emedals.com/europe/hungary/other/a-superb-ww2-hungarian-master-parachutist-s-grouping-with-awards-id-photos Regards, Gordon

Fredhh123, These are all Communist era awards with the exception of a post Communist era lapel pin. The one with the Hungarian crest with the bent cross on the top. Sorry but I don't have the time to list what each award is but they are all common and inexpensive. For example, the SZTATHOVISTA (the first picture in your list of pictures) is awarded for exceeding the amount of work one was expected to do in a certain period of time. It came with a certificate. Here is a link to Collect Russia that has some Hungarian awards listed. It shows one of the awards you have pictured Excellent Worker (Kivalo Dolgozo) badge, Type 4, with original issue box and miniature badge. Late 1970s - 1980s. https://www.collectrussia.com/showcat.htm?cat=hungary Regards, Gordon

ray11, The CSR indicates this artifact is from the Czech Socialist Republic. Not sure what it is but it is not an award. Certainly not rare. Whatever the seller is asking for it it is probably too much. Czechoslovakia has used this style lion in their awards for many years. Here is a link to Czech Communist era medals on the web. You can see the lion used there numerous times. https://www.google.ca/search?q=Czechoslovakian+communist+era+medals&safe=active&rlz=1C1LDJZ_enCA501CA501&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=901&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-_q6G5MbRAhVLwYMKHRt1Bbc4ChD8BQgGKAE The next link will take you to look at some Polish Communist era awards. Note the use of an eagle an an emblem by Poland and the state colours or red and white. https://www.google.ca/search?q=polish+communist+era+medals&safe=active&rlz=1C1LDJZ_enCA501CA501&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=901&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwicyt7v5MbRAhUF7YMKHVGXD0sQsAQIGg Regards, Gordon

Gentlemen, I only have one Finnish tunic in my collection so here it is. Regards, Gordon

turtle, Very interesting picture. I have often wondered if Chaplains in the BW wore a crucifix other then the BW issued one but most pictures do not give me a clear view of what the priest/minister is wearing. Since the BW does no have an issue crucifix for Protestant ministers the minister in this photo has chosen to wear one of his choice. Thanks very much for posting this photo. Regards, Gordon

GreyC, Thanks for the link to the post showing a similar armband in wear. I've seen pictures of WWII German clergy in uniform and actually saw one once at The Max. Nice to fill in this piece of clergy history in the German military. Regards, Gordon

GreyC, Thanks for your comments re the brassard. Regards, Gordon

Uwe, Very interesting. I have not seen these before. Thanks for posting the pictures. Regards, Gordon

cimbineus, Interesting question. I'll have to dig through my collection and check out my crosses. Regards, Gordon

Thanks for the comments on Chaplains in the Canadian Army. I marched in many "church parades" in the RCAF. As an aside, Chaplains in the RCN do not hold rank. Regards, Gordon

Gentlemen, I've been interested in this subject for some time and have written finally something about the Militärseelsorge. The information contained in the article comes from the BW Militärseelsorge web site and from the books on the BW written by Schultz and Kunswadl. Any mistakes are my own and if you can correct anything, or add useful information, I would appreciate it. The pictures of the slip on shoulder tabs shown first and from my own collection. There is an endless amount arm badges worn in the field and I will post pictures from the net illustrating them.Regards,GordonMilitary Pastoral Care in the Bundeswehr;The Catholic military service began on the basis that the Reichskonkordat of July 10, 1933, was still considered valid. The Protestant Military Chaplaincy is based on a treaty between the Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) and the Federal Republic of Germany signed on February 22, 1957. Both arms of the Christian church provide for the pastoral care of servicemen and women of their respective churches. Military pastoral care is part of the ecclesiastical work carried out on behalf of and under the supervision of the church. The state provides for the organization of the military service and bears its costs. The background to pastoral care is to ensure the right of the soldiers to exercise their religion freely and undisturbed even under the special conditions of the military service.The Protestant service is currently comprises (as of May 27, 2016) of 98 military chaplain and about the same number of parish helpers standing by on site as a contact and partially responsible for multiple sites. There are no numbers available for the Catholic service. In addition to religious services ethical support of the soldiers is provided. At foreign locations of the Bundeswehr, where the soldier’s live with their whole families, there is also a complete community life. Military pastoral care is not directed expressly to members of the church, but to all members of the military.The Chaplains do not wear the service uniforms of the BW. They do not have military ranks and are not integrated into the hierarchy of the Bundeswehr. Rather, they are assigned to the military services through cooperation with the individual church organizations.The members of the military of both confessions and their assistance are to be equipped with daily working uniforms according to the unit they are serving with. In the event of military operations, they are to be equipped with combat equipment. However, they do not carry arms. When assigned on boats and ships of the Bundesmarine, they receive the applicable work and combat uniforms.They may wear an armband with the red cross and a 5 cm wide violet ribbon. They wear a distinctive mark on the slip on shoulder straps, which, in form and color, correspond to the religious denomination and the branch in which they are serving. The Catholic priests wear a cross surmounted by a crown in the same colour. A simple cross is worn by the Protestant pastors on the first type of slip on. The second type of slip on has a simple cross and in a sem-circle below the cross the Protestant Chaplain's motto “Domini Sumus” (in English: We belong to the Lord ). Chaplains serving with the army or the air force have silver, embroidered devices on their slip on shoulder straps. Chaplains serving with the marine have gold, embroidered devices on their slip on shoulder straps. The Catholic service also has a metal cross, suspended from a chain, which they wear in the worship service and possibly at other times. The Protestant service does not wear a cross. The clergy of both denominations may dress themselves with stoles when wearing BW uniforms, or they may wear their specific ecclesiastical garb during religious services.A Precursor to the chaplaincy in the Bundeswehr was pastoral care at the barracks of the civilian German Labor Service units of the US Armed Forces in Germany, which began in June 1951.

bobfebder, Nice hat and impressive pictures. cimbineous, Thanks for the pics of the badges and for the history of this unit. What industrial units were combined in 1970? Be interesting to know so we could trace badges, uniforms etc. Regards, Gordon

bsap10535 Thanks very much for the information the visor cap. Regards, Gordon

To all, Below you will find an online translation of the site listed by comune 1 aclasse. If you read the whole thing you will see that he is correct for the organizations he has listed but there may be some exceptions. One of those exceptions listed may be the DDR skydiving badge. I haven't heard of any of the Lander making their own regulations in regard to the wearing of some DDR awards but things can always go unseen in this regard. Perhaps as the years pass we may see DDR awards word in public but probably not on BW uniforms. Regards, Gordon Carrying awards from the GDR ... In unified Germany - Reprinted from: German, German Law Journal, Munich 1995 Enno Bernzen and Klaus H. Spring After the unification of the two German states on 3 October 1990, a large number of unexplained problems arose which have not been fixed down to the last detail in the agreement on the agreement and which will continue to take some time. Both German states had developed differently in 40 years. The issue of wearing GDR-awarded awards in unified Germany has not yet been conclusively clarified. There are parallels to the provisions laid down in the Order of the Order of 1957, which regulate the wearing of awards from 1933 to 1945. The federal government and the Länder have not yet adopted a uniform and definitive regulation. introduction The people in the GDR were honored with a multitude of awards. Thus, there were 176 state awards, some of them multi-tiered, divided into Orders, Awards, Honors and Medals1. In addition, countless non-governmental awards were received. What about the legal foundations in reunited Germany? Can the awards be passed on? After all, there should be some contemporaries who have not yet brought them to the flea market or the trumpet. In Annex I to the Treaty of Agreement, Chapter II of the Agreement on the Unification Treaty states that awards awarded by the German Democratic Republic may be carried on or carried on, unless the public order of the Federal Republic of Germany is thereby infringed. The same applies to foreign awards approved by the German Democratic Republic2. This footnote to the agreement is in accordance with the general rules governing the recognition of approved awards, or of awards accepted by accepted countries for acceptance. The concept of ordre public is borne by the legal system of international private law. This is a proviso clause which is applied when a situation is to be judged according to foreign law and the result is in intolerable contradiction to the basic legal provisions of the Federal Republic of Germany. Wearing awards from the years 1933-1945 In Germany one had to deal with the question whether the awards of a defected dictatorship should be passed on or not. Sections 6 and 7 of the Act on Titles, Orders and Honors of July 26, 1957 govern the handling of the awards awarded in the period from 1933 to 1945. In the Federal Republic, war warrants of the Second World War, wounded badges as well as combat, performance and activity badges may be borne, however, only in a changed form without a hook cross. Other medals and honorary marks awarded in the period from 1933 to 1945, as well as all awards of the NSDAP and its organizations as well as the SS service awards, may not be borne4. This prohibited the wearing of awards which, without any doubt, glorified injustice or awarded merits to criminal organizations. Certainly there is no doubt today that the Second World War was a criminal assault launched by Germany, which can not be justified in any way in any phase. The fact that the soldier, decorated with the war exhortations, was convinced that he was doing something good for Germany, his homeland, his fatherland, can not be of any importance. The legal order in the Federal Republic of Germany provides the framework for public order5 and establishes the prohibition of preparing an attack war in Article 26 of the Basic Law. This prohibition is prosecuted by the provisions on the peace treason in § 80 and § 80a StGB. It is probably no longer possible to pass the Order of the Order in the version of July 26, 1957, by the German Bundestag. 1 GBI DDR, special edition, No. 952/1978 2Anl. 1 Chap. 11 Subject A Sect. 11 No. 2 (Official Note) 3 BGBl 1, 844 as of the 2.3. 1974 (BGBl 1, 469), 4 Geeb / Kirchner / Thiemann, Dt. Orders and Honors, 4th ed. (1985), p. 86 ff. 5V. Palandt / Heldrich, BGB, 53rd Augfl. (1994), Art. 6 of the German Civil Code GDR awards and the "ordre public" Dementsprechend ist auch der Umgang mit den Auszeichnungen der DDR aus rechtsstaatlicher Sicht nicht unproblematisch. Sicherlich ist es so, daß einige der DDR-Auszeichnungen keinen hohen Wert für den Beliehenen hatten, da ihre Verleihung automatisch erfolgte, z. B. bei den Medaillen für treue Dienste oder bei der Kollektivauszeichnung ,,Kollektiv der sozialistischen Arbeit“. Es gibt aber doch Auszeichnungen, die mit persönlichem Stolz getragen wurden. Die konkrete Frage ist nun, welche der vielen in der DDR verliehenen Auszeichnungen widersprechen dem ordre public der Bundesrepublik Deutschland? Maßgebend für einen Verstoß gegen den ordre public ist, ob das Ergebnis der Anwendung des ausländischen Rechts zu den Grundgedanken der deutschen Regelung und der in ihnen liegenden Gerechtigkeitsvorstellungen in so starkem Widerspruch steht, daß es von uns für untragbar gehalten wird6. Konkretisiert wurde dies im Art. 6 EGBGB7: hier wird ein Verstoß gegen den ordre public als eine off ensichtliche Unvereinbarkeit mit wesentlichen Grundsätzen des deutschen Rechts definiert. Das ,,Gesetz über die Stiftung und Verleihung staatlicher Auszeichnungen“ der DDR8 beschreibt in seiner Präambel den Sinn staatlicher Auszeichnungen: Durch die Verleihung staatlicher Auszeichnungen würdigt der sozialistische Staat hervorragende Leistungen und Verdienste bei der allseitigen Stärkung und Festigung der Deutschen Demokratischen Republik. Geht man davon aus, daß die Rechtsordnungen der Bundesrepublik Deutschland und die der DDR nicht übereinstimmten, so wurden nach dieser Definiton Auszeichnungen der DDR für Leistungen verliehen, die der Grundrechtsordnung der Bundesrepublik Deutschland widersprachen. Demnach müßte generell gesagt werden, daß der ordre public in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland ein Tragen aller Auszeichnungen der DDR und auch des übrigen sozialistischen Blocks nicht gestatte, weil die kommunistische Ideologie und Praxis der Of the Basic Law. There were, however, distinctions in the GDR, in which ideological considerations were not the most important in the award, but the person concerned was given an excellent deal with his civic duties. These civic duties, for example, to save a person from the danger of death, to help fight a fire or another disaster, existed in the GDR as well as all over the world. The same also applies to awards awarded for humanitarian merits, eg in the German Red Cross, in the health care sector, but also for voluntary fire brigades. Of course, the honorable deed strengthened the GDR's constitution, but first of all, and above all, it was a respectable act of fellow-humanity, and this aspect is absolutely at the forefront. In the GDR, of course, there were also awards of a different kind, eg in the border troops of the GDR. These were awarded, among others, for. . . The increase in the fighting power and the willingness to fight, and the reliable protection of the GDR 's border. Now, not every member of the frontier group of the GDR who had been awarded an order or a medal such as the honorary title "deserving members of the frontier groups of the GDR", "merit medal of the frontier groups of the GDR" or "medal for model Border service "was to be equated with" bridging ".However, it may be difficult to differentiate. It is indisputable, however, that the GDR's border troops, as a power instrument of the SED, have, in a criminal law-relevant manner, prevented people from using their freedom of movement, which the GDR had acknowledged, for example, by signing the CSCE Final Act in August 197510. In individual cases, the awards of the border troops could also be awarded for serious bodily harm or the killing of a human being. In such a case, the award was awarded for a blatant violation of fundamental human rights. These awards are, in any event, contrary to the ordre public of the Federal Republic of Germany and may not be borne. Also awards the youth organization of the GDR, the ,, Free German Youth "(FDJ), violated public policy because the FDJ was banned in the Federal Republic of Germany in 1951 as anti-constitutional organization 11. For reasons of equal treatment is one difficulty ha-ben at The definition of what is the applicable ordre public for the question of carrying awards, which is covered by the provisions of the Basic Law and the Criminal Code. On the contrary, in order to treat the bearers of the two dictatorships prevailing in German territory, the rules of §§ 6 and 7 of the Order of the Order should be treated as a standard. If one does so, one will find that awards for bricklayers, GDR spies in the Federal Republic, and presumably also awards in the area of the Ministry of State Security, are contrary to ordre public, but that all other awards can be borne. Since the GDR coat of arms or the signs of the GDR mass organizations, with the exception of the FDJ, can also be shown in the public and can not be treated in the same way with the Hakenkreuz, all the awards of the GDR can also be borne in their original design. 6Vl. BVerfG, NJW 1989, 1275; BGTI, NJW 1969, 369 (370). 7Vl. Palandt / Heldrich (ref. 5), Art. 6 EGBGB Note 3. 8 GBI DDR 1 1978, 106. 9Klaus H. and Uta Feder, awards of the National Army of the GDR, Münzgalerie Frankfurter Allee, Berlin, 1994, p. 43. 10 Treaty of 1 August 1975, in the Europa Archiv, 1975, p. D 437. 11 BAnz no. 82 of 28.4. 1951, BVerfGE 1, 184 (185). Individual case examination before wearing license It is generally impossible to ascertain from the provisions on the distribution of the numerous medals and medals of the GDR that it is incompatible with the ordre public. For example, the "Design Award of the GDR", which was donated in 1978, was awarded for ... outstanding achievements, which are a significant contribution to the better satisfaction of the material and cultural needs of the population and to increase economic efficiency in the field of industrial products or complex environmental areas The promotion and implementation of design tasks for the GDR ... 12. It is therefore always necessary to carry out a case-by-case examination in which, taking into account the respective rules on distribution and the awarding practice, it is necessary to consider in detail whether the continuation of the GDR awards would be contrary to the ordre public. The parliamentary undersecretary of the Federal Ministry of the Interior, Dr. Waffenschmidt, supplements this: In particular, it is important to determine whether the award for a concrete act which is unrelated to the system of the GDR and its preservation, such as assistance in the event of a fire, rescue, sporting performance , Whether it was a medal, the award of which was also dependent on political loyalty, or whether it was even awarded for a crime that constituted a violation of human rights from a local perspective. In the case of an award given for political loyalty, there may also be doubts in this respect of ordre public. Existing regulations With the exception of Brandenburg, the individual states have not yet adopted regulations for their area of responsibility, which regulate carrying permission 14. The Law on the Foundation of the Fire Brigade Honour the country Brandenburg15 wearing below awards DDRgestattet is: - Honor signs for outstanding fire protection performance - Medal for merits in fire protection - Medal for selfless use in combating disasters - Rescue medal At the request of the Saxon State Chancellery16, the Chancellery of the Confederation of the Federal Republic announced that the "medal for excellent achievements in the armed organs of the Mdl", as well as against the "honorary mark of the German People 's Police," the various medal medals of the organs of the Ministry of the Interior The medals for loyal services of the Mdl concerns (!) Exist. In this connection, the Bundeswehr issued a temporary telex to all units in 1990, which prohibits soldiers in uniform, but also civilians, from wearing medals, badges or badges of the GDR in military installations and in the service outside military installations. Classification and parachute jumping badges of the NVA of the GDR may not be worn on the uniform of the Bundeswehr. However, there is the possibility, after acknowledgment of services rendered (eg skydiving badge), to have these circumscribed18. Foreign awards Foreign awards awarded to former members of the GDR are to be reported by Bundeswehr soldiers to the minutes of the German Ministry of Defense, according to ZDv 20/15, Chapter 3. Together with the Federal Presidential Office and the Federal Foreign Office, the latter then checks whether these awards can be borne. At present, the Federal Ministry of the Interior and the Federal Ministry of Defense, in cooperation with other concerned ministries, are drafting the relevant legislation. Summary: 1. At present there is no intention of revising the Act on Titles, Orders and Honors of July 26, 1957 with regard to the accolades of the GDR. 2. Nach Nr. 2 der Anlage I zu Kapitel II des Einigungsvertrages sind ordnungsgemäß verliehene Orden und Medaillen der DDR wie Auszeichnungen nicht mehr bestehender Staaten zu behandeln. Grundsätzlich ist es demnach dem einzelnen überlassen, ob er derartige Auszeichnungen tatsächlich weiter tragen möchte. Eine Einschränkung erfährt dieses durch einen Protokollvermerk: demnach dürfen Auszeichnungen dann nicht geführt oder getragen werden, wenn dadurch der ordre public der Bundesrepublik Deutschland verletzt würde 19. 3. There are bans or concerns regarding the ordre public of the Federal Republic of Germany in the following awards: - Awards of the Ministry of State Security, - Awards of the Border Groups of the GDR, - Awards of the German People's Police, - Awards of the combat groups, - Awards of the FDJ. With the exception of the above awards, the other awards of the GDR can be worn. 4. There is, therefore, the obligation for the individual recipient to check whether the passing on of the ordre public is infringed. As is the case elsewhere in the ordinance, he is subject to the risk of persecution resulting from an administrative offense under Section 16 of the Order Act. 12 GB DDR, 1, 942. 13 Letter from the Parliamentary State Secretary to the Federal Ministry of the Interior, Dr. Horst Waffenschmidt, 8 December 1994 (unpublished). 14 Letter from the state chancelleries of the federal states to the authors (unpublished). 15BbgGVVBI 1 No. 3 of 17.2. 1994. 16 Letter to the authors of 18 November 1994 (unpublished). 17 Telegraph of the Federal Defense Ministry of 26 September 1990, MsgNr. 041975. 18 Letter from the former Minister for Disarmament and Defense R. Eppelmann, Member of the Bundestag, to the authors, 5. 1. 1995 (unpublished). 19 Eppelmann (footnote 18).

Jock & Iron Cross Diamonds, The BW soldiers are in harms way and there is no doubt of that. But a state of war does not exist between Germany their foes in Afghanistan. There was a lot of push in Germany to bring back the Iron Cross for Afghanistan but that was ruled out because no state of war existed. They didn't even have a bravery medal and that is where the push came for the return of the Iron Cross. But "Political Correctness" still exists in Germany so no Iron Cross for bravery. What doesn't make sense to me is that the Luftwaffe can use the Iron Cross as their insignia on their aircraft and that is quite all right. I will never understand politicians! Regards, Gordon

More great tunics. I especially like the Corps of Guides tunic. If only I had some room left in my collecting rooms! Regards, Gordon

Clive, Great looking uniforms. Why don't you bring one or two to the show this month? I am sure they would attract lots of interest to your table. Regards, Gordon

IJSBEER The metal insignia you have shown from Snider's site is for U-Boat Flotilla number 1. Not specifically for U-141. The emblem for that u-boat would be the one next to it. The devil riding the torpedo. These emblems were often found on the conning towers of the u-boats once the numbers were removed after the start of WWII. All u-boats did not have emblems on their conning towers. Nor did all u-boat crews wear emblems on their caps. Many of the emblems worn on the hats of u-boat crews were made on the boats and are therefore rough in appearance. I have never bought anything from Snider but he does not have a very good reputation among collectors. Regards, Gordon

Hi, There was one for sale on this site that appears to have some useful info on this award. There is also some info on this award on wiki. http://www.medal-medaille.com/sold/product_info.php?products_id=1295 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Liberty_(Estonia) Regards, Gordon

Paul, Well said!!!! Regards, Gordon

ottomanantiquestore, I told you some time ago that I would inquire about the regulations regarding new members posting things for sale on the for sale section of this forum. Took a while but I have received an answer. The restrictions on new members selling on the for sale site have been removed. You can now post items for sale on the for sale section as soon as you join the forum. Please list your for sale items on the for sale location in the future. Regards, Gordon

ottomanantiquestore You are correct in what you have said. If I remember correctly, a member must post a certain number of times before they are allowed to sell on the forum. I looked through the Guidelines etc. but could not find that information. I'll find out and let you know. Regards, Gordon

ottomanantiquestore The link I have posted below will take you to the Sale Page on this forum. It tells you the regulations for selling on this site. It is the first thing on the home page when you log in. Welcome to the GMIC. Always nice to have new collectors join the forum. Regards, Gordon http://gmic.co.uk/forum/35-the-old-sale-room-resurrected/ You do not use

ottomanantiquestore The link I have posted below will take you to the Sale Page on this forum. It tells you the regulations for selling on this site. It is the first thing on the home page when you log in. Welcome to the GMIC. Always nice to have new collectors join the forum. Regards, Gordon http://gmic.co.uk/forum/35-the-old-sale-room-resurrected/