Ulsterman

My cousin sent these to me. They are brass,(well, alloy anyway-brassy on the outside)) filthy and apparently came from a box filled with football badges, stamps, girl guides pins and other bric-a-brac. I suspect they are crap, but I know next to nothing about PRC awards. Anyone seen these before?

I got this Sunday. Alas, in the gloom of the church hall what I thought was silver and a US Spanish war vet'erans medal was instead made of bronze and has a "17 years" button at the middle bar. Still, a very nice piece, unusual roundhere and I am happy. Does anyone have any specific information regarding this? I suspect it is a U.S. yoemanry marksmans' badge @1900, but I would be absurdly grateful if someone could tell me more. The photo below is borrowed for academic purposes only from the US9NYGR regiment website. My eternal thanks.

Its a four full noncom bar.-all for WW1 service. Talk about a hattrick!

Briefly Ed-no. I have been looking at this topic for a while-since 1997 in fact and nobody out there is doing this-at least not in English speaking countries. There is a PhD thesis in there somewhere-or certainly an article. Hitler knew the old Freikorps were threats-hence his rants in Mein Kampf and the banning of most Freikorps awards. A german academic named Rafael Scheck(?) started to do something on this after researching the Kapp Putsch-but he got sidelined into the Von Tirpitz's Navy League and Weimar north german politics. Freikorps subjects don't get one tenure these days.

I have a rare booklet, published by the A.O.K. 6 signals and intelligence Abt. in Nov. 1915 etitled" Die Indischen Truppen in Frankreich". It is really interesting, as it includes not only capture summaries, POW letter translations, but also a precis' on the Indian nationalist movement and plans for the eventual use of unhappy French and Indian POWs in Lager Halbmond. "Jeder lebendig gefangene Inder und Nordafikaner aber kann uns fuer die gegenwart und Zukunft von Nutzen sein, wenn er sich entgegenkommend behandelt sieht."

Beautiful medals. I have seen a number of British and American MM groups with a Russian "Murmansk" medal. Does anyone have any information about it? I think there was an Irish (Republic) one too.

Again, according to "Renegades", there were 4 South Afrikaans in the BFC. None were given harsh sentences for their war time antics by sympathetic courts. There were a number of dual nationals in the Wehrmacht-most famously SS-Mann Cooper. The IRA papers have recently been declassified in Whitehall and while there is some interesting Abwehr "Please spy for us" stuff, there's really not much there.

According to "Renegades" (p. 120) there were an Englishman, Cpl. James Conen (London taxi driver) and a South African/Namibian, William Ciellers (a policeman from Windhoek), both had been captured by the SS in Italy. They were asked to go with the unit to Russia for some reason (having been put to work by the Germans) and were sworn in as Hiwis and drivers in Russia for the flak unit of the LAH. They served in Russia in late 1943-44 and were popular in the unit. Both were awarded the EK2 as Hiwis. Upon the LAH's rotation back for refitting in mid 1944, both men were sent to join the BFC, but both refused and they went back to POW camps. Neither were ever prosecuted after the war. I first heard about Conen 35 years ago in an edition of "Der Freiwilleger". I have been told that others have photos of them in 1943 in LAH albums.

It is British!! Long service and good conduct medal sir! See Robin Lumsden's medal bar.

According to John Toland-who did quite a bit of research (p.95 Adolf Hitler , 1976), Hitler got the EK1 on August 4, 1918 shortly after he captured a number of french soldiers in no mans' land. He received the EK1 for prior achievements-"general merit and personal bravery" and the officer who reccommended him for it (and awarded him the medal) was Jewish, named Oberlt. Hugo Gutmann. Hitler also received the EK2 in 1914- a rare award at that time, the Bavarian MVK3x (17.9.17), the regimentsdiplom for bravery (9.5.18) and on 18.5.18 the wound badge. On 25.8.1918 he recived the Long service medal-3rd class (he signed on as a war volunteer-not a regular too so the LS medal at that date is interesting and noteworthy-attn. Rick L!). The regimentsdiplom sometimes had an unofficial silver medal awarded (and sometimes engraved) given as a token of the award-but it was rare and varied by regiment (if given at all). I think there is a powerful arguement to be made that Hitlers' EK1-its prestigue and universal, "democratic" nature, was perhaps the single defining moment of his personal life. His ego was gratified after that award -it was rare to his rank-no more than 5-10% EK1s were ever given to groundpounders. It helped launch his political career. DDoerings' medal bar on the bourse looks quite like Adolf's official awards-up to 1935 anyway.

wow WC- Those are great bars.

Yeah-the "throat order" was why I got it. I like the oddities. I figure he lacked a hook at the buttonhole and just moved it up. Odd given his rank and age that he had nought else.

I saw this and thought you'd like to see it. I can not figure out if he's a Beamter of not, but I'll study him more tonight. Note the throat warmer though.

Saw this in Time magazine this week. How did the PM get all these? What are his ribbons? Is he a war hero?

I think it very much depends upon what lists you are reading. Actual photos of both being worn are very rare-and I reckon the lists you are looking at are "officer" types who might get the 3rd for donations/service/long service (I have seen Urkunde with these awarded for "6 years service in the DRK etc." noted pre-war and then another for actual service during the war. During the war it seems one actually had to merit these awards-even the third class

and he wrote on the back of the photo: " Battleship Bismarck, 35000 to. -passed (by) on the evening of 21.5.41. Herdla (where the man was stationed in Norway). 24.5.41 sunk the Hood 27.5.41 Bismarck was sunk. p.s. Thanks Simon!

This is the photo he took:

On the early evening of 21.5. 1941, this man took a photo:

very nice!! Any attempt to contact him at all?

By the way-there is a copy of the above I think at Jeff Floyd's auction this month.

Nice! 4th one over from the right on the lower left case-now THAT's a tab!!

My sentimets exactly-amazing stuff. Well done! I hope someone sends youa big beer!

very,very nice and mayhap to a woman! Nicest bar I have seen in a long time.

Can you give examples of the latter? I had heard that somebody in China was redoing Angolias' books on CD-they don't care a damn about copyright laws there and even when caught, have a front company that takes the legal hit and has no assets to obtain recompense from.

Interesting discussion, but again, I caution anyone willing to make a CD that if copyright has been reasserted, then it is piracy. Selling CDS for profit is not "free intellectual usage", as is allowed under the law, even if there is a social benefit. German army ranklists are one thing-since they were common state property to begin with and there is a very strong, if not definitive arguement that as such the unconditional surrender in 1945 passed all military property rights to the Allies. Just as the Allies had the right to destroy previously German owned weapons, so they can (or can not) assign intellectual property rights. This was one of the sticking points over the BDC transfer-who exactly owned what. Two men I respect and admire greatly on this Forum have suffered grievously from intellectual theft. The last M.A .article, with Ed's name in 4 point Times font ("thanking him") and using almost verbatim, his descriptions of Iraqi medals, was almost the last straw for me. Kleitman was Hessenthals' assistant and may well have inherited his property after Hessenthals' death. Either way, a legal search should be done in Germany and the EU, since their intellectual property laws are now merging. I believe that Kleitman, who died only @ 15 years ago, left part of his estate to the BDOS and some to OMSA. If that is so, then there are active agents around more than able to assert their legal rights. A redone H & S, translated and with colour photographs of medals, adding Orders as well as additional information, properly footnoted and acknowledged, should pass copyright muster. But it would be a massive task, as has been pointed out.