Ed_Haynes

I just got in hand the paper catalogue for the San Giorgio auction. Words fail me.

Most of what I have are things that have come as a part of groups, though a few single ones have "happened to" me, almost by accident. Without a good reference book (thank you Paul), these are impossible to collect. But, given prices, they may be all we can afford. And they are about the only place where a beginning collector could start. But so few dealers bother with them, realizing that a six-figure group means more profit that a single-figure badge. Yet the badges are (so far) legal to export from Russia.

Thanks for targeting this issue. I'm not sure I know the answer and it is something I struggle with (as a historian who loves unanswerable questions). Some random thoughts follow. You are absolutely right that the migration of these medals and groups to "the West" has helped, in some circles, to open up a much richer understanding of the Soviet sacrifice in the Great Patriotic War. The "NATO-centric" view of WWII has (a Cold War holdover?) totally ignored the Great Patriotic War. Most of my students at university think WWII in Europe was all about "Saving Private Ryan" stuff and "know" (faith-based history?) that Hitler was a communist. Should today's Russia appreciate the role that these medals and their tales play and have played in restoring history? Maybe. But they don't much appreciate the GPW even at home. Ask a surviving GPW veteran whose pension has been slashed to the point where he must beg on the streets of Moscow. When governments can't do anything to help their people, they make laws about silly things and feel good. The ban on Medal of Honor Sales in the US and the "Stolen Valor" nonsense, the Australian and New Zealand bans (effectively) on Victoria Cross exports (and the Canadian move to do the same), and the Russian ban on the export of Tsarist or Soviet ODM are all cut from the same political cloth. Stupid and trivial? Sure. But the law is the law until it gets changed and all the whining in the world (c.f. the Nazi collectors and the display of their swastika) won't help. I have no doubt that many of the medals we have in our collections were sold out (illegally) from museums after the collapse of the CCCP, I fear many of the medals we have were stolen (sometimes accompanied by homicides) from the veterans or veterans' families, other medals in our collections were sold by the veterans or their families to agents of the familiar dealers to raise much-needed cash in the post-Soviet years of hardship. I think most of us would agree that the possession of stolen or illegally exported goods is a naughty thing. And some of us recall the old days before 1991 when whatever Soviet awards came on the Western market had their serial numbers scratched out. I still recall -- I'm about to date myself -- my first OMSA (1976) when some dark-suited chaps from the Soviet embassy attended, going around and recording legible numbers from the few Soviet awards in the bourse. Guess who they were, guess what would soon happen; rather like the FBI making the rounds these days looking for high US gallantry awards for sale. I suppose this is why some collectors and dealers hide serial numbers when they present images (mnaking the images virtually useless). And we do have the fact that auction houses in the UK and Finland have had some very bad run-ins with assertions of the reach of Russian law and cultural patrimony; when INTERPOL gets in the game, you really can;'t laugh at the situation. For whatever reason (who knows why Tsar Putin does what he does), the export ban on pre-1991 ODM is being enforced these days. At least in the near-term, what is in Russia stays in Russia. And (until recently?) with the emergence of a new class of the rich and super-rich and crazy-rich in Russia, there is the ready cash to recapture the exported national phaleristic heritage. On one level, I'm not sure this is a bad thing, that these things will go home. I know of several technology millionaires in India who have been aggressively recapturing India's plundered cultural heritage when it shows up in London auction rooms (though the Koh-i-Noor escapes then, so far); if the Greeks only had more money, the Elgin Marbles might just go home. But to repeat: What goes back to Russia will probably stay there. Until recently, the auctions and dealer's lists have been structured in the certain knowledge that Western collectors are not the marketing target. We are irrelevant, as one well-known dealer bluntly told me. An item at auction or on a list may have what seems to the poor (like us) as a high price, but someone will pay it, and that someone will probably hold a Russian passport. The only hope for Western Soviet collecting in the next generation is the fact that many of these acquisitions are sent to bank valuts in Switzerland rather than back to the Motherland. The hope that some of these Russian "collectors" are really investors and will flog their things back on the market when their next craze hits may be a source of hope? Yet many of the new Russian collectors are very good and very serious. Some of them post here. Their language and research skills have revolutionized the base of reliable knowledge. But this has led to a partition in the field into a community of Russian (Russian-speaking) collectors and non-Russian (non-Russian-speaking) collectors. Sadly, the modes in which this distinction are sometimes expressed are not always diplomatic. We've seen some outbursts along these lines from time to time. There is, in some circles, a sense that only Russians can and should collect and understand Soviet awards and that all the good books are in Russian, all the good websites are in Russian, all the good discussion fora are in Russian, etc. While this contributes to what I sometimes fear is a growing chasm in our "hobby" (what a little word), it does have a rational basis. Has the famous British Battles and Medals been published in Spanish? When did Die Tragbaren Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Reichs appear in Korean? What does this mean for the future? Absent RNA transplants for language acquisition (how I wish) will non-Russian-reading collectors become dinosaurs? Or has it already happened? We may have been out-evolved in the struggle of the market and of the reference book (or -- gag -- website)? As the supplies of Soviet awards shrink (in the West), as everything that is likely to come to market appears (absent the financial necessity to sell dad's medals in order to eat), as the national phaleristic patrimony gets siphoned back to the Motherland, the basic ECON 101 principles do engage: Supply and demand. But is the Western demand in fact growing (or even stable) as prices rise? Many collectors talk about "getting out", shifting to something else, but do they dispose of their collections? Many seem to. In the current economic situation, do collectors sell that Nevsky to pay the heating bill? But who can buy it? The supply is shrinking, but is the market growing? Just last night I was looking through one of Igor's paper lists from 1998. The old saying came to mind: Read it and weep. The breadth of stock and low prices (even when adjusted for inflation) were striking. But what difference does the current global depression promise? So far we don't know. Wait and watch. We are just now in a two month period with a series of major auctions. What happens there, what the prices are, who buys the goodies will all help us have a better picture in a few weeks. Are we watching market saturation (as nearly happened to collectors of South Asian medals when the three-part auction of the Magor collection took place a few years back)? Yet, long term, I can't see that we are watching a "tulip bubble" that will burst anytime soon, unless we all wind up selling apples and ORBs on street corners. Sorry for such a long and rambling post. Please, what do others think?

Good guess, Paul. Checking MIC would tell.

Very interesting indeed. I look forward to learning more.

Good work. The first on the third row is the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, mounted out of order. Most likely a fairly senior naval NCO. See: http://www.medals.lava.pl/us/uschk.htm

A Vietnam-era naval bar, but I'll let you do your research. Hate to spoil the fun.

A Bhutanese award is discussed over at http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=31748 - I don't have the power to merge that discussion into this thread.

Fascinating! Health? Politics? I hope we learn more (well we always learn MORE, but . . .).

A fascinating question. My suggestions might "stretch" the world view of the "mainstream"? Listing six (as before): Delhi - Sirmoor Levy (later 2nd Gurkha Rifles) 1857 Manipur - 43d Bengal Infantry 1891 Defence of Chitral - 4th Kashmir Rifles 1895 Defence of Chakdara - 45th Sikh Regiment 1897 Gully Ravine (Gallipoli) - 14th K.G.O. (Ferozepoire) Sikhs 1915 Defence of Singapore (and Malaya) - Kapurthala Imperial Service Infantry 1942

My guess is that his commander wanted the havildar to have nice sparkly medals as he was to be "on show" so they got annodized (sp?) tailor's copies mounted up. Most officers (true in all armies?) are easily ammused by sparkly things and dislike the real, duller appearance of authentic medals. Most serving officers also don't understand the meaning of clasps (this is why multi-clasp medals are so rare, as most recipients just pitch out subsequent loose clasps when received). Medals have come to be seen, at least in the Indian Army (where this particular Gorkha bugler serves), as not much more important than buttons or cap badges or underwear. To rectify this problem is one reason Rana and I did the book. The last I heard, each battalion will be getting a copy (whether they want it or not), which will just make them angry or confused or seeking the nearest trash bin but will make the publisher very happy.

Sorry for the secrecy you've put in play here, but I can understand some of the reasons for it. But, given the obvious hunger that many of us feel, it is cruel to toy with our emotions and hide behind secrets that you won't share!

Two are under the Gorkha's arm. OP Parakram Medal Sainya Seva Medal High Altitude Medal 50th Anniversary of Independence Medal 9-Year Service Medal As his Sainya Seva has no clasp, these are fakes (replicas, whatever) from a military tailor, not the real things. Don't overdo the praise.

In partial response to Kevin's query on another thread, I thought I have a Videsh Seva for Lebanon. But I don't seem to. And the MoD medal office didn't have a clasp in stock, so all we were able to say/show in The Book was this (though we say more in the UNOGIL and UNIFIL sections). Sorry to raise hopes.

Other researchers who can work only from serial numbers?? Do tell. By PM if needed. GK has been travelling. Back soon. Maybe . . . ?????

Right. It seems a few specimens of the 1939-43 Star were made but only a ribbon. Churchill (silly bugger) wanted the RAF to wear it reversed. Not sure when the UK issued them. For India, I estimate 1951-52.

My father's are narrow, pin-back, USNR 1942-46.

Pre-wear ones certainly were. By the end of the war they had pretty much shrunk to army sizes.

As I recall, the initial proposal had been for one, but later both were allowed (and by "later" I mean before 1944/45). Let me check notes from the Archives. What book by Davis?

Right, OBE = Officer of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire [4th class, gilt badge] or MBE = Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire [5th class, silver badge]. As the ribbon seems wider, those would be my guess rather than the BEM, the medal of the order, which has a narrower ribbon. It could even be a higher class, but I'd doubt that. And it is the military class and the post-1935 ribbon. 3 and 4 look to me like the top rows of two-row ribbon bar groups. 5 is interesting. The 2/2 mounting is odd indeed. Almost makes me think: Very small person (nurse?). What makes you say "Navy"? The Defence Medal was rather uncommon for naval types. Megan has nicely explained the oakleaf device for M-i-D.

My thanks too. We are all learning here.

The only ribbons that would be worn at that time would be the 1939-43 (later 1939-45) Star and the Africa Star. Others came much later.

#1 is right #2 seems more likely a OBE/MBE than a BEM (wider ribbon) the 2nd ribbon, a BWM (nevers erved outside UK), and an Army (any "British" force not just Indian Army) LSGC.

As usual, wise words. Twice, at least.

Very very nice to be able to see the image. Perhaps it may become legal for US inmates to collect these soon.