Valter

The inner side of faded bavarian ribbon...

I purcased this not-so-well preserved empty bar from Franco-Prussian war and i'd like to restore it. I know there should be a Prussian commemorative medal 1870 on the left and centenary medal on the right, but what's in the middle? Bavarian 1866 cross, or long service medal or cross? Or anything else? What would be the most interesting - but yet completely legit combination?

That's Bulgarian St. Alexander order 6th class. I'm not sure if the swords really mean "combatant" or only award during wartime, and/or award to military person. It was always awarded on red ribbon, not "usual" Bulgarian war ribbon (light blue with silver edges).

Very nice job Brian!!! Glad to see this lovely bar back to life!!! And I'll grab the opportunity to ask: I also got one destroyed bar (in much worse condition, but it was cheap ) and I'd like tor estore it. It's bavarian from franco-prussian war and there should be prussian combatant medal on left, centenary medal on right - but I'm not sure what goes in the middle: bavarian long service (could be a medal or cross, or both?) or 1866 war cross? or something else? Thanks in advance for any tips!

A fantastic grouping and great (but sad) story! Thank you for sharing!

Saša, I can enter the forum via link, no problem - maybe you should be registered (it's free): http://wehrmacht-odlikovanja.com anyway, here are links to high qualitiy pics of what is more-or-less considered as fake (weight about 15 g): http://postimage.org/image/1bpndxp2c/ http://postimage.org/image/1bpp1h1k4/ http://www.shrani.si.../1/dscn1923.jpg http://www.shrani.si...YL/dscn1924.jpg (note dents/holes on the edge at "VOJSKE") http://www.shrani.si...vz/dscn1929.jpg (there is also distinctive vertical line going over the flag and soldier's hand on the left side) http://www.shrani.si...TI/dscn1930.jpg (dent on the edge, again) These are considered original (weight about 18g or more): http://www.shrani.si...dU1y/sb-005.jpg (note better details on averse) http://www.shrani.si...EVXd/sb-006.jpg (no dents on reverse) http://www.shrani.si...EJYM/sb-012.jpg People say fake ribbon is made of some sintetic material (often artificially aged), but original should be of cloth. If the original ribbon glows under black light, I don't know. Additional information: there is rumor that about 500 of these fake medals were ordered by "famous slovenian dealer" (or two of them) in company Heledis, Celje (former Aurea)It is distinctive, that these medals didn't appear on market for years (only 250 awarded!) but recently there's plenty of them for sale. The faker's story is these medals were recently found in some army warehouse. But this is unlikely IMHO, as spanish medals were produced for a closed group of recipients and there were no need for additional awardings (and the recipients were mostly too old to serve in army), not like partisan stars and other decorations, that were sometimes found in army storages, as the later were supposed to be awarded in future war (what is not the case with spanish medal). On 4th of December was a numismatics fair in Belgrade and it's said there were several spanish volunteer's medals for sale, most of them with distinctive holes above VOJSKE. There were also plenty of partisan stars 2nd grade for sale for 80-120 euros, although they were scarce years before and went for well over 200 euros. The debate and comparison of fake partisan stars is not over yet (I'll post about these, when we get some more conclusions).

There were rumors before about fake yugoslav medals and some orders, but now some more specific information emerged on one slovenian forum. Preseted is (supposed to be) fake medal for spanish civil war volunteers: http://wehrmacht-odlikovanja.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6824 the difference is in some details, but also weight: originals should be 17-18+ grams, and fakes 15+ grams (without ribbon). The sign of fake is also two little holes on the edge of reverse, above O and between J and S in word VOJSKE (see picture). The debate is not over yet, so I cannot tell for sure if the example shown is really fake or not, but caution is necessary. The "candidates" for faking are also other rare yugoslav medals: medal for merit, medal for travel to India & Burma and probably Danube bridge too. There are well known fakes of first type of orders of military merit (in a form of a medal with soldier in greatcoat), but these are quite easy to spot due to very poor details and shiny (almost crome-like) finish. There are also a debate about fake partisan stars 2nd grade (Russian type), but opinions are inconclusive. I'll post more when we find more information.

and lastly, the box. The box is for peice without crown, but I'll keep it until I find a piece without a crown and box for crowned one.

... and reverse.

These peices are really beautiful I'm adding my 5th class with crown, Feridnand period.

... and look how the needle is sloping... it should be even with hook! :violent:

Thank you all for posting these links and pictures! This thread became very interesting!

No opinions about my second opinion? I know it's nothing special, but I'm clueless and very curious. Thanks in advance for any help. Valter

A really great book with nice pictures! Thanks for posting this link! if I could only understand a word or two... :speechless:

Sascha, I think you're right... I didn't think about porcelan buttonhole device, but this seems logical, and also the size is more accurate... this also explains strange shadows and old-fashioned clothes So, the oportunities are: #1: EK2-noncombatant or RAO #2: Hohenzollern order, or Kronenorden (assume the porcelain makes strange reflections) or long service cross #3: EK2 ribbon (but EK2 wouldn't be on 3rd place, so maybe RAO on combat ribbon, or Kriegsverdienst medal?); or (a bit modified) Alsen or Koeniggratz (the later would be the wrong place) cross #4 1870 medal (strips are too narrow - maybe a painter's "freedom"?) #5: 1864 medal What do you think about that?

I'm helping a friend to identify decorations on this old guy's ribbon bar. I couldn't get better pics, sorry. The picture was taken by a photographer who had businesses in Hamburg and Berlin, if this helps something. Due to clothing style I said at first this shoudl be end of 19th / beginning of 20th century, but these small ribbon bars were not worn then yet. So it should be shortly after WW1. As the guy is quite old, he was probably non-combatant, but that's just a guess. My opinion is, there are 4 ribbons, amybe 5 on the bar. The most distinctive is 3rd with broad dark stripe, I assume it's Sachsen-Meiningen. My guesses are: #1: Sachesen - FAM or Preussen Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen or Hessen Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen or (less likely) Albrechtsorden #2: Braunschweig non-combatant cross 1914, or some of the above #3: Sachsen-Meiningen KVK - non combatant (or combatant maybe) #4: Sachsen - cross for Freiwilliger Volkspflege or FAM (peace time ribbon) or Colonial medal or Ehrenlegion medal or WW1 Austria commemorative medal ... #5: is this a ribbon at all or just a shadow?! I'll really appreciate your opinions. Valter

Paul, you probably made a mistake - rate DEM-EUR was not 1:1, but (roughly) 2:1. But many dealers simply switched prices from let's say 100 DEM to 100 EUR. And in its first year, euro was still inferior to $. Only in november 2002 the tides changed.

A very nice piece! Congratulations!!! :jumping:

Agree, Drugo, but this is true only for federal decorations (orders and medals). Marksman's medal was not a state-level decoration (you won't find it in any list of federal Yugoslav decorations), but "priznanje" (achivement sign) on army (not state) level. It is possible that there was some kind of case, especially in early times, but I doubt it, as I never seen or heard about one, and not even mentioned in books and articles (papers). The same is with army anniversary medals - these were not part of federal decoration sistem, and some of them do come in (very rare) cases, but some of them never. I know about cases fot 30 years of victory and 40 years of JNA medals, but the others (10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 50 years of JNA) most likely never had cases.

I've never seen one either. I think the case doesn't exist at all. I've seen only examples in (blank) paper packets, but I'm not sure if these packets were originally designed for these medals. The "generic" Yugo packets can be found with late medals and bravery orders.

IKOM = industrijska kovnica Orešković Marko (Industrial forgery O.M. - named after partisan commander and national hero) ZIN = Zavod za izradu novčanica (Institution for manufacture of monetary) and I completely agree with saša - this change of lettering had no political meaning. For comparison,. main army newspaper "Front" was printed partly in latin, partly in cirilic. The choice of articles which were printed in this or that script was, as i could see, random, but they tried to maintain some "balance" (about half-half).

It says: "By the instance of fulfilling round number of years and for active participation in fight against fashism and capitalism as well as building socialism, the State council issued orders ot award to Petar Mančev Grančarov, dr. Nikola Valčev Terpešev and engineer Petar Nikolov Statev with order »People republic of Bulgaria«, 1st degree. The same order, 2nd degree, is given to Boris Tomov Markov for the instance of his 70th birthday and for active participation in fight ...(as above) The order »People republic of Bulgaria« 3rd degree, gets Kalister Georgiev Pešev for the instance of his 70th birthday and (as the above)" č = ch š = sh The clip matches with documents and everything, it's a really nice grouping! :beer:

Yes, it is possible the bar is put together - and that's almost impossible to prove or reject, but it's also possible the bar was rarely worn or not at all. It looks just faded (ribbons), but I can't see any obvious marks of wear (fraying, worn down rings...) so it might be the veteran just obtained the bar, put it in a drawer (or cabinet) and never put it on. If it was worn maybe a couple of times for a couple of hours, enammel might not get chipped. It is quality enammel work and these decorations were made to be worn (as you can see on pictures of Bulgarian officers) so it probably won't chip instantly. I see many bravery crosses from WW2 period with chips and cracks, but few earlier pieces, like this one. So it's maybe of better quality. Regards, valter

HI David, I have military merit cross in my collection- it's the red enamelled cross with swords in case, top left part of the picture. Unfortunately I don't have Tapferkeitskreutz yet, but it looks like this (4th grade/Klasse, 1st class): or this (4th grade, 2nd class):

Very good observations, Belaruski! I've never noticed the bar across "7" issue, but when I look on some soviet pieces, you're right.