GdC26

Welcome to the Forum, and thank you for posting this, Leo. The grouping is quite moving, and it is sad to see how 106 years on, history repeats itself on another European front. Kind regards, Sandro

Very interesting, and good to have independent confirmation. Many thanks Glenn, I've learned something😀 Kind regards, Sandro

Hi Glenn, interesting puzzle. Perhaps the quote below from https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Personenregister/K/KressvKressensteinFriedrichFreiherr.htm offers a clue ? "Im Sommer 1918 wurde ihm dann das Kommando einer deutschen Militärmission im Kaukasus übertragen. Dabei sollte er mit schwachen Verbänden die Unabhängigkeit von Georgien sichern und deren Aufbau einer eigenen Armee unterstützen, damit diese im Süden des ehemaligen russischen Reiches im deutschen Interesse aktiv werden konnte. Nach der Kapitulation von Deutschland musste er Georgien verlassen. Dabei kam er in englische Kriegsgefangenschaft. Im 1. Weltkrieg wurden ihm sehr viele weitere Orden verliehen. Nach seiner Entlassung kam er im Sommer 1919 wieder nach Deutschland. Er wurde dann als Oberst in das vorläufige Reichsheer übernommen, obwohl er eigentlich 1918 bereits zum Generalmajor befördert wurde. " (emphasis added) Would make sense, if he was sent to Georgia with a more or less independent German detachment, as seems to have been the case. And he was clearly well connected in Bavarian military and court circles, as one of his relatives (uncle?) was Bavaria's defense minister up to 1916, and Friedrich was apparently awarded the commanders cross of the MMJO in April 1917 as a mere Oberstleutnant. So a typical case of Bavarian love/Prussian dislike? 1918 would fit the awards worn in the picture (the MMJO commanders cross awarded in April 1917 and hte PLM awarded in December 1917 were both visible) and it Pickehaube's were commonly worn by general officers until the end of the war, especially during formal occasions as may have been the case here both Kreß and (the officer to his right wear full medal bars, which suggests they may have been attending a parade or suchlike). Kind regards, Sandro

Excellent, that will be an important addition to the field of phaleristics. Kind regards, Sandro

I think Christian is correct, the device looks to be too small. Kind regards, Sandro

Maybe, but as said before I'm not so sure - normally, royalty would wear uniforms with matching decorations when posing or when on state visits, and Italy on a Danish uniform with Norwegian decorations just doesn't make much sense (especially if one considers that the purported Kleindekoration of the grand cross of Italy's highest military decoration is hidden behind the Jerusalemkreuz, and that it is the only Kleindekoration he would be wearing). Mistakes were made, but donning a completely random set of orders is rare, and seems out of character for someone as vain as Wilhelm II. Given the apparent theme of the decorations Wilhelm II is wearing in the pic (2 Norwegian orders, 3 what one might -somewhat incorrectly - call "ecclesiastical" decorations and the Adjutantentabzeichen for Kaiser Wilhelm I), I wouldn't be surprised if the mystery cross is some ecclesiastical decoration as well. I checked other pics of Wilhelm II in Danish admiral's uniform yesterday, but none of them show him at the correct angle. I also checked some references on Wilhelm II's decorations, but did not identify the mystery cross through those either. Wilhelm II's (main) orders are listed on the Wiki page I posted earlier. Kind regards, Sandro

That That is consistent with Getty’s identification. Still, for reasons explained above, both the order of Savoy and the Bulgarian civil meritorder seem unlikely. Kind regards, Sandro

I'm not sure about the identification of 3 as either the Bulgarian order of civil merit or the Italian order of Savoy, if only because Wilhelm II appears to be wearing a presumably Norwegian (rather than Danish) admiral's uniform, with orders to match. I would expect 3 to be either Norwegian or a (protestant) religious decoration, which seems to be the second theme apparent on the picture. Savoy also unlikely as the emperor was awarded the GC of that order, not the knights- or officers cross. I see no evidence Wilhelm II was awarded the Bulgarian civil merit order. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II,_German_Emperor Kind regards, Sandro

As Oberst, wearing this Blue and an earlier version of this ribbon bar? Yes, that seems possible, well done Charles. Based on his entry in the Militärhandbuch 1916, the Johanniter BMO officers cross with swords would be correct, too. Kind regards, Sandro

I'm fully aware what it is Filfoster, that is why I said the link may be helpful in identifying medals on Ludwig III's bar - if you check the link (more) carefully, you will see that the medals on each of the stoelen bars are listed. Coupled with hte new photographs, I think the link gives you a handsome guide that should assist in further narrowing down the list. Just a thought ...... ? Kind regards, Sandro

https://www.deutsche-gesellschaft-fuer-ordenskunde.de/DGOWP/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/06112005_Bay_Landeskriminalamt_Muenchen.pdf Perhaps this may help in hte identification of further decorations on the Ordensspange, as it shows several Ordensspangen of members of the Bavarian royal house. And below are some further pics that look to have been taken at the same sitting (same Schärpe, same tunic, same array of breast stars etc.), and that if so, might help ID's the decorations. Kind regards, Sandro

The "Reiterabzeichen" or "Sportabzeichen" in the drawing has a pronounced protrusion on top that is broader than the vertical line underneath it. Its shape reminds me of that of the Hessen Kriegerehrenzichen, but I did not find any immediate evidence that Throta (who was born in Sachsen-Altenburg) received it or was a citizen of Hessen in 1917/18. Like Simi, I'm also not sold on hte KvK1 theory. I initially liked the thought of a St. Olav (not an uncommon interwar award for ranking Kriegsmarine officers, and one that would probably have fitted his rank of Korvettenkapitän from 1937 onwards) but on checking believe the commander's star of that order is too large to fit the bill of the cross depicted. drawings tend to focus on faces, and are not always a good source for identification of orders and decorations. Unless someone finds an actual picture of von Trotha properly showing his left lower breast, I guess this will all remain conjecture. Kind regards, Sandro

There is plenty of information on the SEHO if you simply search the forum or the web, but to answer your questions: the SEHO ceased to be awarded as a stately award in November 1918, but thereafter continued to be awarded as a houseorder. See German Wiki, coupled with Google translate if needed: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzoglich_Sachsen-Ernestinischer_Hausorden Kind regards, Sandro

Many thanks Chuck, and my pleasure to share it. That is a nice one, too. It shows that hte shop at Friedrichstraße is in fact hte main one, and that the Under den Linden shop is merely a branch (Zweig-Geschäft). To me, that is a valuable piece of information I hadn't seen before. Here is a picture of Friedrichstraße store front, borrowed from the web. Kind regards, Sandro

Absolutely my pleasure GMU. Kind regards, Sandro

Thanks Vince, glad you like it. Kind regards, Sandro

Just in. I hope those interested in phaleristics find it useful even if the orders shown are not lifelike photographs but either paintings or repainted photos. Scanning the catalogue I couldn't find a publication date, but based on the inclusion of the Südwestafrika-Denkmünze I'd place that between 1907 and 1914. The text on the opening page could be read to suggest that the booklet was issued on the occasion of the opening of J.H. Werner's shop at Friedrichstraße 173 in Berlin, but the venerable Sauerwald (Königlich Preussische Ordensjuweliere, page 145), seems to suggest that J.H. Werner operated shops at both Under den Linden and Friedrichstraße from 1891 onwards. Kind regards, Sandro

Let's breathe some life into this interesting and now slightly dusty thread with a scan of (the second page of) an invoice from the estate of former Reichskanzler Michaelis, detaining Godet-Werner's prices for the sets listed. Unfortunately, page 1 of the invoice is missing, so its date is unclear, but Godet and Werner seem to have merged/started their cooperation in 1929 and Michaelis died in 1936, so the invoice will presumably date between 1929 and 1936 (and likely from between 1929 and 1933/34, as Michaelis will likely have had limited use for decorations of German states thereafter). See: https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12210 on the Godet/Werner cooperation/takeover. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Michaelis for further details on Michaelis, whose estate was sold by Carsten Zeige in 2001. Kind regards, Sandro

One of the tragedies of our time: the confusion of opinion with fact. Which is why - next to handling good, accepted pieces with solid provenance - good references are a critical part of the hobby and a necessary investment - they show pages and pages of accepted contemporary variations, of Militärdienstzeichen for example, and even a few with eagles that fit within the center medallion of the cross ... BTW, the eagles on the long service cross of the 1st republic are very different to those of the threat-starter (no golden Vließ Kollane, for starters, no scepter and Reichsapfel, no crowns or pendillen and the republic's shield in the center .....) (picture courtesy of Richard Dawkins) Kind regards, Sandro

For anyone seriously interested In imperial Austrian-Hungarian decorations: https://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?book=4715040&Language=de https://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?book=47567520&Language=en https://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?book=3370752&Language=en Not flawless but close enough, and in any event better than some of the publicly available sources. And available in English for the price of only a few costly fakes ..... Kind regards, Sandro

Nice thought, but you do know the "old gentleman", as you call him, managed to lose not just about every war he fought over the course of his long reign, but also his empire, right? Kind regards, Sandro

RedNoseScout, (or Erik, as I understand), I understand your disappointment on the lack of applause, but this is forum I the tradition of Rick Research, so we deal in facts here. Based on the discussions so far, on the two badges you presented ihere recently (the Ppopov badge and the one under discussion here), I believe these facts are as follows: Both badges are contemporary originals (dixit Enzo, Tomas, Sandro); However, that is not what defines their value: that value lies in the engravings (dixit RedNoseScout, Enzo, Tomas, Sandro); Moreover, Tomas has handled the Popov badge and considered it bad, along with others who examined it at the time. The badge went unsold. The engraving on the Popov badge seems to be done by hand, the engraving on the badge shown here may be done by machine (dixit Simius Rex). Either way, even if both are hand engraved, hand engraving is not a final authenticator (disxit Enzo, Tomas, Sandro). The badge presented here shows exntsive recent sanding marks on the back that eradicated all patina. Those require explanation. One explanation could be that the badge was prepared for engraving (dixit Sandro). The engravings of both badges seem to contain little "glitches" that may be there on purpose, to avoid criminal liability for forgery (the "ö" in this badge, the "Serg. (if that is what is says as per RedNoseScout, Enzo and Kasle) in the other (dixit Sandro)). the historic context of the Popov badge requires explanation, especially if you, Enzo and Kale are correct on the "Serg.", because aviation iwas in its infancy in 1908 (the year mentioned in the engraving); there were few aviators and most were well known (dixit Tomas); and Russia and Austria were enemies in WWI, so it is hard to see why a 1917 Austrian aviation badge would bear a dedication to an (as yet: unknown) Russian aviation pioneer, or one that only started flying in 1909. Vince can speak for himself, but I think his conclusion was more cautious than you make it out to be. His exact words were: Hmmm, very interesting discussion. My knowledge of K.u.K badges is fairly weak, and I tend to avoid making any pronouncements due to the level of fakery. However, I'm going with my original feeling about this one, that the engraving is period and not some shambolic faker's attempt at enhancing value. Why this curious engraving is on this particular badge is certainly mysterious, but should not be dismissed outright. And whether Enzo's case and badge are mismatched is hardly relevant to the discussion of the badges you presented (but again Enzo can speak to that if he wishes). You and the dealer you refer to are absolutely correct that the best way to authenticate a piece is in hand inspection. In that sense, the forum is indeed limiting,. The problem with that argument for the Popov badge though is that it WAS inspected by Tomas and others when it hit the market (over) a decade ago, and was dismissed then as bad, by Tomas and others (as Tomas stated, it went unsold). On your last point, I don't consider or hold myself out as an expert on anything, but try to apply research, logic and reason to see if things add up. In this case, for the reasons set out above, I don't think they do, but as always. I'm absolutely open to rational debate. And as said, I fully understand your disappointment at the lack of applause: we all have made collecting-mistakes (God knows I have), or at least have had pieces in our collection criticized (God knows I have), but that does not define us. What defines us is how we deal with that. If there are points I have overlooked in the summary of facts above, or that could help explain matters feel absolutely free to raise them . This is an open debate, as far as I'm concerned, in the spirit of Rick Research: fact based, and with some humor if possible. There are no Gods here, and no hired hands - just people trying to learn. Kind regards, Sandro

Nobody forced you to participate Luftmensch, and your contributions have mostly been personal attacks on those who disagreed with your central thesis, viz., "they don't engrave like they used to". So if you don't care to engage on the issues being debated (like the sanding marks on the back of this badge, or the "Ö" that casts doubt on the attribution to Fekete) and instead continue to prefer to cut into another member who dares to disagree with you, then maybe this indeed is not the forum for you. Plenty of alternatives without "Gentleman" in the name, so back to Facebook I say. Sincerely yours, Sandro

I'm a bit with Tomas on this: not sure it would actually bring us back to the beginning. The badge itself is fairly common, its value lies in the engraving. The facts, then remain as Enzo and Tomas have stated (real badge, introduced in 1917; hand engraving in Russian; no Russians flew in the Austrian airfare in WW I; no discernible connection between the 1908 dated dedication and the badge or Austria). Whilst RedNoseScout is correct that there were frequent contacts between aviation ioneers in the first decade of the 20th century, there were not that many of them in 1908, And Tomas has noted that when the badge entered the market it went unsold and tha those who inspected it in hand dismissed it as bad. And then there are the small glitches in the engravings of the two badges under discussion, here and in a parallel thread, that seem to stand in the way of postive attribution: here, the middle name, in the other thread the "ö" that renders the attribution to Fedeke speculative. All of this could of course be coincidence, but at the very least, gives (me) reason for pause. Kind regards, Sandro

Makes sense (as Simi's comments generally do). I think this also explains why the back of the wreath looks like it has been freshly sanded, and lacks all patina - compare with the badge posted by Enzo. Kind regards, Sandro