peter monahan

Yes, indeed. Fascinating story. Thank you.

A young Indian, studying at Oxford, enlisted and was commissioned in 1914, presumably because he was officer material and the skin tone either didn't register or was deemed irrelevant. He said, in remarks I read years ago, that aside from being nicknamed 'Blackie' by his men, his experience was that on any junior subaltern in that war. At the same time, no Indian could possibly have been commissioned in the Indian Army - that didn't happen until the '30s and there was great debate about whether Indian ORs and VCOs should be eligible for the VC. They were so deemed, but at least in part because the West India Regiment was eligible already. In a related note, there were at least two Parsi [indian] councillors elected in London in the 19th century and black doctors, trained in the UK, served with the colonial medical service in West Africa, until British women arrived on the scene, when they were retroactively deemed inappropriate! As the author quoted in the article says, the rules were broken "when it was expedient", but the underlying prejudices and attitudes were still alive and well! As Nick points out, skin prejudice is a luxury in the trenches and fox holes, but back at Base, sadly, it remains strong. many sad stories out of Vietnam of black and white grunts serving with and dying for each other, but spending all their base time in separate, racially homogenous groups. I hope this guy gets his MC even if it is a little bit PC. Symbols are important and this one would, I believe, have some real resonance among black and white Britons alike.

One thing that always strikes me very strongly about these chaps is that most went back to civvy life and carried on, probably mentioning their 'adventures' in the war rarely, if ever. "Soldiers for the working day" someone called them and prefectly ordinary blokes the rest of their lives. Or maybe not. Just can't get my head around that. Peter

Very classy, Robin. Pirates, right?

So, the Boer war was in some ways a civil war, the very nastiest type of conflict going, especially if its a guerilla civil war! I must confess that while I have an interest in SA 1900-1903, my reading has been pretty sketchy and while I knew about the British inhabitants who supported the Queen and the 'native' scouts, black and white, but had no idea of the number of 'pro-Anglo' Afrikaaners. Thank you for both the medals and the education! If you want to know about Indians - from India, not domiciled in SA - I may still have a few notes. Simply put, most were British Indian officers servants or cavalry sowars who came in with the huge numbers of remounts imported from Australia for the cavalry and mounted infantry units. However, the Indian Army was very quickly ruled out as a military resource in the war because sepoys and sowars shooting at white men had a really bad resonance only 45 years after the Indian Mutiny! Peter

Colour me impressed! I know just enough about modelling to know the hours these represent.

Update: used fine steel wool and a very little bit of oil. 90 seconds gentle work and the blade is as good as new. Also discovered, to me shook, that the Curator doesn't have a background in museology and so has never taken a course on conservation! What one gets when a municipal governments hire people for their musuems.

"What is this "sleep" you speak of?"

AND ''Ouch!" too. Serious wallet ache.

Spot on, Congo Brown!

I believe that Marconi Radio did the same for the British Merchant Marine. My late father-in-law, a Canadian, was hired in London by Marconi but served aboard a tramp steamer, the SS Pensilva. He wore a Merchant Marine uniform with RO badges. In fact, it was the only thing he owned as he abandoned ship after sending an "S S S" [submarine attack!] signal as the Pensilva went down, half a day out of England in September 1939!

Shams I'm answering off the top of my head here, so I haven't got all the details, but the Indian Imperial Police would have used a paramilitary rank structure, like most Imperial police forces, with Indian Constables and Head Constables and British officers. I believe they were Constable and Head Constable, not Corporal and Sergeant, and wore two chevrons and three chevrons respectively, like those worn by British NCOs. Officers wore a single star, two stars, two stars and a crown and so on. The stars were silver, 5 pointed and textured. Sorry, don't know a better way to describe them than that. If you Google "Indian Police badges" you'll see modern examples but if you substitute a crown for the three Lions of Ashoka they look much the same as the IIP badges did. Several of our members are police collectors and can probably give more complete answers but I hope this is some small help. Peter

What's the big fuss? Just because some other guy died to earn the award doesn't mean some rich dweeb who's taste is all in his mouth shouldn't be able to wear it to his fraud trial, bar mitzvah and beach barbeque too. Lighten up guys! Hell, I was presented with the tie of the of the Indian Army Officers' Association and felt guilty as hell both times I wore it - in North America where, as far as I know, the Assoc. has no members. The movie one can probably be put down to a costume director who like the colours - happens all the time. As I said just now in a different forum, the stuff guys wear on their chests in old war movies would make you crazy!

Yea, take a look at what costume directors have done to medal bars on older movies. Enough to make your hair stand on end: Brits wearing German decorations awarded before they were born is the least of it.

1939 Star 'awarded for service... between 3rd September, 1939 and 2nd September, 1945" NAVY: "six months [ie: 180 days] service afloat in areas of active operations... [or] did not complete six months service afloat but took part in a commando raid, etc..." ARMY: "six months service in an operational command, except for service at Dunkirk, Norway and in some specified commando raids and other services for... one day." R.A.F.: Operations against the enemy provided that at least two months service had been complete in an operational unit... Non-aircrew personnel had to complete six months service in the area of an operational army command except.. [Dunkirk, Norway, etc.]" MERCHANT NAVY: "personnel who completed six months service afloat, provided that at leat one voyage was made through an operational area... [or] "the evacuation of Dunkirk"... Service in fishing vessels and in coastal craft was also included." (from Major L.L. Gordon's British Battles and Medals, 4th edition [1971])

Chris Loved the Louis CK bit. There's a new '24 hour comedy' radio station where I am and I get bits of his stuff and like it but hadn't heard this one. We the entitled ones! Quite coincidently, and referencing another thread, I mentioned yesterday, in The Lounge, that I'm following a web site called '40 Acts of Generosity', a new way to observe Lent. Today's suggested activity is 'Make a list of things you're thankful for.' 'White' and 'male' gotta be near the top of the list! And 'born and bred' in the west needs to be up there too. I was standing in a day care centre one morning during Gulf War I and heard a woman talking about phoning her sister is Tel Aviv. This was when Hussein was lobbing random missiles into Israel and the sister was telling this lady how hard it was to get the 4 year old to keep his gas mask on! I'm not much given to spontaneous prayer - my loss, not God's - but I closed me eyes right then and there and said 'Thanks, God, for at least one thing I'll never have to worry about!" Not sure I agree with the idea that ordinary people can't change events - look at Arab Spring - but certainly feeling guilty for where we were born or what our ancestors did or didn't is pretty pointless. I think the fact that a bunch of [white males] who've never met face to face can be having this 'conversation' says a lot. Can't imagine doing it 2 or 3 decades ago, even ignoring the web thing. Too many people and states weren't ready to talk or to listen. I may have said this before but a friend of mine - Michael Johnson, a member here - had a bet that South Africa would NEVER sort out apartheid without bloody revolution. I know he's very very glad to have lost that bet! I'll close with this: my youngest is starting the wheels in motion to spend her third year in university on exchange in South Africa, at Rhodes or U. of Cape Town. We'll see about that - not cheap and a very long way from home!

I've just seen this thread for the first time, obviously brought to the top of the page again by recent posts. I have no experience of southern Africa but spent a very instructive two years in Nigeria in the early '80s. On a somewhat lighter note: most of my Nigerian students were under the impression that Ian Smith's first name was 'rebel', as that adjective invariably preceded his surname in news stories there. I've studied a little African history, taught history for 35 years and my youngest daughter, bless her, is minoring in African history, so I've brushed up a very little bit again lately. And, I think anyone who knows me at all would put me to the left of center on most political spectrums - a liberal democrat who can appreciate the benefits of a well run socialist state. [sweden comes to mind.] So, here goes: I don't think one can discuss Rhodesia or S.A. without the politics. As in so many other areas of life, anyone who has enough knowledge to be worth listening to already has an opinion and probably a strong one. Having said that, as the name of this outfit suggests, we have good claim to be gentlemen one and all. I suspect that, had I been born in S.A. or Rhodesian, or 1930s Germany, I would have carried a rifle for my country too. I only hope, that like the ex-Legionnaire Chris describes, that I would have been able, at least later, to take the long view and recognize that both sides had a stake and some rights. I hope I would have accorded the black Rhodesians/Zimbabweans the same right to independence as those former colonies which did not have large white populations. And, as has been suggested, the right to self rule, or adulthood for that matter, must include the right to f**k it up! And hindsight, always 20-20, can never be used to justify the wisdom or otherwise of decisions made in the past. I live in a country which screwed over, and is still screwing over our aboriginal peoples. I think I, probably not even a direct descendant of any of the oppressors, have some responsibility to try and remediate some of those wrongs. That doesn't mean I'm blind to the faults evil acts of either side back then nor that I'll support any measure the First Nations may feel they need to regain their power, culture or history. No one is going to give Manhattan island back to the Lenape nor the West Indies back to the Carib Indians. What happened, happened. When I taught this history I pushed very hard on two things: that some things are always wrong and that the ends do NOT justify the means, a notion that the American 'war on terrorism' is wrestling with right now. I think we can and perhaps even should discuss the men and women of principal and courage on both sides- all three sides? - of the Rhodesia/UDI/Zimbabwe struggle did and believed without either demonizing the 'enemy' nor glossing over the ugly deeds that all wars engender. Ok, off my soap box now! But I do hope this thread continues and multiplies! Peter

There is a company in the north of England, Wyedean Weaving, who make 'lace' for uniforms. That is, both the individual worsted tape with various coloured 'worms' in it which British regiments wore in the 18th and 19th centuries - a unique pattern for each of the 100+ regiments of foot. They also produce metallic lace in silver and gold and the worsted tape worn as rank chevrons by corporals and sergeants in the armies of the Empire and Commonwealth for 100+ years. They provide lace and other items for the bands of the Brigade of Guards, for example Wyedean's regimental lace runs about L300 for 100 yards I believe - remember it is specifically woven when ordered by regiments or re-enactors. Not a huge cost if one lined up a few fellow enthusiasts to split the cost. They would likely have the expertise to weave medal ribbon as well. If anyone is interested in making enquiries, the y are to be found here: http://www.wyedean.com/index.php

Its been a few years since I checked but I can't imagine that here in the frozen North the laws on illegal weapons has loosened up. Quite the reverse in fact, with the current government. And, at the risk of sounding like a bleeding heart liberal [or Liberal], I don't think this bunch has been watching the news from south of the border, where the evidence that 'tough on crime' doesn't work is getting well nigh irrefutable. Peter

Good to know if I ever need to get an inscription translated. Translation programs just bug the heck out of this former English teacher!

Stellar!

The new title still doesn't do it justice! and yes, I'd agree that there might be some real coin in this, though I know that's not why you do it. If I had any photos of military relatives, they'd be on their way to you now, with cheque enclosed! Peter

In Canada these are classed as 'concealed weapons' and very illegal. I once came off a flight from Amsterdam with a guy who'd bought one but none of the crew, who had taken custody for the flight, thought he had any chance of getting it through Customs, and I had to agree. A chap I knew many years ago had an ancestor who'd actually killed a man with a sword cane. He was a small town chemist [pharmacist] in the late 1800s and was accosted one night as he left his shop with the day's receipts He promptly ran the would be thief through, but was not charged as it was deemed self defence. Some of us cynics figured he probably spent years trailing his coat round town, just praying for a chance to use his infernal device. Mervyn, it has been suggested to me that the optimum method for unsheathing the sword is to poke your assailant with the sheathed blade. He [or she] will, quite naturally, grab the scabbard to pull it out of your hand and, voila, naked balde at the ready! But do tell us about the time you used yours. Inquiring minds wish to know.

That is one classy piece of glassware! I like the shape, as well as I can make it out. Most of the examples I'm familiar with - which isn't very many - are the standard square 'spirits' type.

Christiano Bienvenida a la foro! There are a number of members from Latin America and many of us with interests in almost every military topic, so I expect you will get some comments and posts. have you any other information about Bolivian militaria - uniforms, medals and decorations? It is probably a closed book to most of us, but as I say, many of us will read any posts you make. Again, welcome! Peter