peter monahan

yes, it would be a marvelous find if authentic. Well worth contacting some of the auction houses for a really informed opinion or, as suggested, the appropriate museum(s). Hope it pans out!

I especially like the central located single medal bar. Does his batman sew him in ad cut him out each day, or does he sleep in the uniform?

Officers of the British Army carried a John Adams ['Adams'] revolver from 1867 to 1880. It was a six shot revolver in .45 calibre. In 1880 it was replaced by the Enfield Revolver, Mark 1. The Enfield, in .476 was never popular - not a great design - especially on the NorthWest frontier of India where there were complaints that it lacked the stopping power to deal with 'drug-crazed' Afghan 'gazis' - 'holy warriors' or what we'd call Muhajadeen today. The Enfield was also very heavy and difficult to reload quickly, so many officers undoubtedly purchased their own pistols privately, probably Webleys or Colts. A cavalry officer would probably carry a sword on campaign, as it could be carried on the belt or strapped to the saddle. Infantry officers may or may not have done so, based on the cumbersomeness of carrying one versus the perceived likelihood of needing it. Webleys, introduced in 1887 - in a heavy 455 calibre - were used in various models up to and through WWI. Hope this helps. I'm curious to, as to the need for the info. Term paper, new collection item or...? Peter

Jeff What he said! I think Mervyn's idea is a splendid one. There are certainly others out there who would both enjoy and benefit from an article with the kind of data you've mined for. Makes me remember why I collected medals for many years! It might also serve to contradict the naysayers who maintain that unnamed groups are 'not researchable'. I collected medals to private soldiers in the British Indian Army and heard the same thing for years which, to my glee, meant that those medals were dirt cheap. You've come up with some really interesting stuff there!

Interesting qualifications:"Awarded to police forces for service in harsh enviormental conditions, or conditions of other special difficulty". Without research, but recognizing some of the bar titles, UI take it these are awarded for counterinsurgency duties in states where there are separatist movements and/or terrorist-guerilla-freedom-fighters. Nobody's idea of a nice duty to have!

Jack Sepoy = private / Sowar = [cavalry] trooper Naik = corporal Havildar = Sergeant [infantry] Daffadar= Sergeant [Cavalry] Then the usual ranks for commissioned officers [all British in the Indian Army at this time]: Lieutenant, Captain, Major, Lt. Colonel, Colonel PLUS what were called 'Viceroy's Commissioned Officers - the Brits were "Queen's Commissioned": Jemadar, Subedar and Subedar Major for infantry, Jemadar, Risaldar and Risaldar Major for cavalry. These were like the senior warrant officers many armies used - paid and dressed like officers but not strictly in the chain of command. The Indian ones were in the chain of command above the Other Ranks and NCOs but below all Br. officers. They were the upholders of regimental tradition and, being Indian, an important link between the Indian ORs and their Br officers. Many were highly decorated and almost all would have worked their way up from the ranks. They were treated as officers in terms of military courtesies and so on. Later - in the 1930s - these ranks became the basis for King's Commissioned Indian Officers, with Jemadar equivalen to a Lieut., Subadar/Jemadar to a Captain and Subedar Major/Risladar Major a Major. Hope this helps. If you have other questions, drop them here or you can send me a PM [by clicking on my name]. Peter

Yes, the uniforms have that 'close enough' look that non-military bands use when they want to be mistaken for soldiers without hassles about copyright! Can you copyright a uniform? I think so, as the US Marine Corps allows civilian use of their logo, but only after payment of royalties. And I'm sure they're not the only ones! The tunes didn't sound quite martial enough either, though I often have trouble IDing brass band songs. In fact, i strongly suspect that their are books of tunes for bands like these which deliberately sound LIKE military tunes without actually being military. [see 'royalties' above.]

Chris L Just ignore Chris B. He's just upset that he can't fit his Fokker triplane into the garage. I agree that aviation is often ignored by WWI enthusiasts caught up in the muddy details of trench warfare. OTOH, the very first military adventure/history book I ever read was about "Renfrew of the Mounted [Police], who left off chasing criminals around frozen northern Canada to fly a Sopwith Camel against the dastardly Hun. I think I was ten! As you say, the advanxces in technology fuelled by the air war are hard to overemphasize. I'd be quite interested in some shots your collection, even the ragged canvas, as I'm sure others would be as well.

Sounds like you need to round to the dealer, or perhaps the family, upturn them and shake till the lost star drops out! Families are notorious for losing bits of groups, or even conflating groups to separate recipients. sadly some dealers aren't much better, especially the Jackdaw Brigade, who grab anything military and shiny and slap ridiculous prices on it. Good luck with further research. I would think anyone serving through War Two on trawlers and minesweepers must have had an 'interesting' war, even if he never set foot on a capital ship.

What are the chances that it also goes out to Officers and senior NCOs of the Gurkha regiment stationed there? I know one ex-Gurkha officer, probably long dead now, who got one for being in the area of the palace during a Birthday party for the Sultan.

Vancouverites will tell you 'Yeah, it rains a lot here, but at least you don't have to shovel it." We effete easterners respond that "We have moss on the trees here too. but at least you don't have to shovel it!" Seriously, a lovely city. You'd also find yourself at home in Victoria, probably the most "British" of Canada's cities, including the nationally renowned high tea at the Empress Hotel.

Some of our European members may not be familiar with the legend of the Great Fire of Chicago [1871] which was allegedly caused by a cow belonging to a Mrs. O'Leary, who carelessly left her candle next to a pile of straw while milking Bossie, who kicked the candle of and so precipitated the great conflagration! Another type of lantern, besides the 'lanthorn', suitable for rougher useage than a glass sided one, was made by punching a large number of slits and small holes, often in decorative patterns, in the cylindrical tin body of the lantern. This allowed a small amount of light to escape, perhaps enough for milking after dark, fetching wood or walking home from the pub. At the museum where I work now, one of our programmes centers on the use of fire for heat, light and cooking. The craft associated with this program is punching patterns - Xmas themes this month - in small squares of tin, which can be taken home to hang on a tree or in a window. Our clientele, BTW, are generally aged 6-10 for this tour. Here's an example - http://www.dallashistory.org/images/Lantern.jpg Another small note: until recently, the ultimate 'dumb question' asked by tourists of historical re-enactors was 'Is that a real fire?' However, it has dawned on me over the last couple months, helped by witnessing a 5 year old pick up a live coal from a cooking fire, that many of 'the modern [urban]generation' have not only never seen a farm animal except on the telly but they've never seen a real fire either! A sad commentary on modern Western society's grasp not just of history but of how huge parts of this world's population still live! On that cheery note, happy December. Don't bother paying your bills or shopping for Christmas, as my Mayan friends assure me the world will end on the 21st of this month. Peter

A friend of mine used to pull over people he thought were driving dangerously, using a hand held spotlight and his Canadian Army driver's licence, in a little leather case, which he would flash briefly at them. Oh, the stupidity of youth! But as far as I recall, he was never called on his 'right' to be doing it.

That would indeed be 'one for the books' if the two could be re-united because of the GMIC! Owen, Those look like a couple of good sources indeed. I have been a real skeptic about family stories ever since I was 12-14 when a girl I knew told me about her Dad's "Victoria Cross". He'd flown in the Battle of Britain. I spent months angling for an invitation to meet he and his lovely medal and, not surprisingly, when I managed it, it wasn't a VC! I've also done research on a group owned by a colleague whose family had gotten everything right about the medal except to arm of service, the war it was earned in and which side he was on!

Azeyeoman What's the explanation for the medals with the 'wrong' naming? It seems to me that if there are 'some' - meaning more than 1, I assume - WITH the rounded threes that there are two possible explanations: 1) some one is faking bronze medals to the Chinese Labour Corps, using name erased or unnamed bronze WM or 2) there really were some named in this style and Williamson is simply mistaken. My money would be on explanation no. 2! I have owned many Indian issued British medals - WWI pairs and trios, including bronze ones, IGSMs and a few others and the variety of naming styles is very wide. Clearly the official style was used in the majority of cases but if the stamps were unavailable for whatever reason - worn out, in use, lost - the fellows in the Calcutta mint used whatever came to hand. On the other hand, if you have info. on faking them, I'd be very interested in hearing it! Sincerely, Peter

I agree with your assessment, Mervyn, on both the value and the deed. I have always felt that the term "a good VC", slung carelessly about by collectors, was the absolute height of mindless snobbery! I will grant that the standards have 'tightened up' over the years, principally after other medals and awards, particularly to rankers, became available. However, I defy anyone to show me a 'bad VC'! My favourite contender for that one of those `less good` VCs would have to be Private Timothy O`Hea of the Rifle Brigade. In 1866 he discovered a fire in the ammunition car on a railroad train which also had 800 German immigrants locked into their cars. Single handed he threw burning cases out of the car then made 19 trips to a nearby creek for water to extinguish the fire. But not in the presence of enemy soldiers! He was awarded one anyway, after an exception was made. Braver than fighting off 20 mutineers with a sword; Not sure, but I`d be very very hesitant to label either a lesser award than say, charging a machine gun nest in the Falkland Islands!

I only glanced at this item initially, before my last post. Looking at it more carefully, I have to agree that the cloth is not old enough for this to be authentic. British red wool cloth, used for tunics and, in this case, headgear is a very very thick 'fulled wool': a very tight weave which was then boiled to shrink it and is so tight that edges need not be hemmed. One certainly couldn't see the weave clearly, as is the case on this hat, unless it were in a spot on the garment where it got constant rubbing - cuffs of a coat, back of the collar and so on. This, judging by the relatively open weave, is a cheaper grade of wool so, sadly, not form the period of the British mitre cap, which were last worn before 1803. :(

Kev You might try info@militaryheritage.com Peter and Robert are experts on the late 18th,early 19th century British Army and produce museum quality replicas of uniforms, head gear etc. One of them may be able to help with an expert opinion. [Don't tell 'em i sent you! ] Peter

Oh! Boo! Seriously, ChrisP, it would be fascinating to get some bio. info. on Gunner Joy!

I agree - German/Austrian or possiblyone of the Scandanavian countries; late nineteenth or early twentieth century I think

It looks nice and crisp, so if its a copy its a good copy. However, Mervyn is right: good copies need to be side by side with a known original and, often, physically in the same place, as 'feel' - which is really just your mind picking up clues at the subconcious level, I believe - is important too. Sorry not to be more helpful! :(

Glad we could help. BTW, I'm sure many of us would love to read the story. have you a link to it - posted on-line somewhere? Peter

Ion You can start here, at the British National Archives: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/britisharmysoldierupto1913.htm You'll see that many of the records are now the property of the genealogical companies, but a basic membership is not very dear and usually worth the money. Just make sure you remember to cancel the automatic renewal! There should be medal rolls as well as service papers available. Good luck! Peter

Its an easy ID for Canadians, Mervyn, as even squaddies can count the number of regular force infantry units Canada has without taking their boots off. "Small but mighty" should be one of our mottoes, as the vast majority of our forces are Militia, though many of them regularly volunteer for active service in places like Afghanistan and on peacekeeping.

Need a few more details to make any useful guesses. Could he have been a Communist and so fled Ireland for Yugoslavia and was able to get work there? Perhaps he had some skill set which made his employment [as a mercenary?] there useful to Tito. hard to say with such a bare bones description. Peter