1870 Non Combatant Iron Cross Officer's Medal Bar

[BlackcowboyBS]

true! That would be wonderfull. Even the answers to the ribbon on the HO without swords and the KO4 on that ribbon without the cross haven't been given. 

 

So @Daniel Krause what about you, can you id this bar? 

[Daniel Krause]

Hmpf.... first of all, a very interesting item.

If Rick could not do it, its definetly not easy.

 

It would be interesting as well, if all Orders are Gold or are there silver gilt pieces on it.

Esp.. the red bird, the Ernestinian and the centers of the Albert. 

 

Definetly no military type, pure civilian, so my crystal ball is useless, would have to check the prussian court and state handbooks around the 1890ies and early 1900 by hand.

 

Best,

Daniel

[Komtur]

5 hours ago, Daniel Krause said:

... It would be interesting as well, if all Orders are Gold or are there silver gilt pieces on it. ...

 

IMHO these are silver gilt ones. The Hohenzollern is not an officially awarded one. It seems to be made after 1918 and could be at the best an exile award after 1930. In the end a strange combination with at least some doubts.

 

Regards, Komtur.

On 28/08/2006 at 19:33, Paul L Murphy said:

...

HOHENZOLLERN HOUSE ORDER KNIGHTS BADGE IN GILT;

RED EAGLE ORDER 3RD CLASS WITH CROWN IN GILT;

...

 

 

Gilt as stated in the beginning ...

[91-old-inf-reg]

@KomturDo you think this could beg the question that this could possibly be an early example of a “Frankenstein” bar?

The missing schleife, the worn Kronen Orden IV klasse, the post-1918 HOH, and, possibly the weakest of the evidence, the awards being in silver gilt. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by 91-old-inf-reg

[Gary B]

3 hours ago, FAR 32 said:

Hello folks.  It seems nobody finds the medal bar I presented above interesting enough to provide any feedback. 

 

 

 

You should probably start a separate thread for it.

 

Gary B 

 

[BlackcowboyBS]

7 hours ago, 91-old-inf-reg said:

@KomturDo you think this could beg the question that this could possibly be an early example of a “Frankenstein” bar?

The missing schleife, the worn Kronen Orden IV klasse, the post-1918 HOH, and, possibly the weakest of the evidence, the awards being in silver gilt. 

By Frankenstein - Bar you mean it is a modern creation to harm collectors? 

 

6 hours ago, FAR 32 said:

Hello folks.  It seems nobody finds the medal bar I presented above interesting enough to provide any feedback. 

 

 

 

well your bar is a nice one, but what should we tell you? The owner must have been a public official for more than 40 years, started his career before 1897 so he got the centenard while he was serving in the army or maybe as an official for the prussian state (which I doubt in regards to his south german awards) He wasn't fighting neither in ww1 nor in ww2, but got the prussian wmc and wmc in ww2 without swords. So all cries out: public official who owned some merits in supporting the troops, maybe working for the reichsbahn or post or ... an id would be close to impossible I would say.

 

And maybe next time you really should start your own thread on this bar.    

 

8 hours ago, Komtur said:

 

IMHO these are silver gilt ones. The Hohenzollern is not an officially awarded one. It seems to be made after 1918 and could be at the best an exile award after 1930. In the end a strange combination with at least some doubts.

 

Regards, Komtur.

 

 

Gilt as stated in the beginning ...

The first time that I saw this bar, I said to myself: wow, could this combinantion be really true? A KO3 combined with a KO4 with this ribbon, the HOH with that ribbon and the RAO3 with crown but without bow? But then I read all your opionions on it, like rick, etc... and told myself: okay I am not an expert on prussia, so what do I know to tell my doubts? But yes even the fact that we can't find a possible id of the owner makes it hard to believe that this one is an original one from the German Empire. If it would be, it would be certainly a very impressive one. 

 

But coming back to my question: the KO4 on this ribbon without the red cross on the order, who could get this one and for what kind of reasons, someone wrote here that this happened. So I would love to learn more on this. Thanks! 

[91-old-inf-reg]

@BlackcowboyBS No, more so original and authentic pieces that had been put together, not so much being modern productions, just being an amalgamation of awards.

[laurentius]

12 hours ago, FAR 32 said:

Hello folks.  It seems nobody finds the medal bar I presented above interesting enough to provide any feedback. 

Most likely because it is a WW2 medalbar whereas you are in a forum aimed at German states (which ends in 1918 with some notable exceptions, such as the exile-pieces already mentioned). Not to mention the fact that the question regarding your medalbar is posted in a thread which has an active discussion on a different medalbar.

 

12 hours ago, FAR 32 said:

I'm certainly not Komtur, but calling the OP's medal bar a Frankenstein bar is a bit extreme.  You're basing your conclusion on flimsy reasons like the bow becoming detached, the Geneva cross falling off, and a post-1918 HOH??  Life went on after the fall of the Kaiser, you know.    

Wondering whether a medalbar is a 'Frankenstein' is justified in my opinion when ample evidence is given, as @91-old-inf-reg does. He gives us four (solid in my opinion) indications that something might be wrong. There is ofcourse the possibility that the bar is genuine and that he is mistaken. It is merely a continuation of the discussion which might lead to different perspectives on the piece.

 

12 hours ago, FAR 32 said:

While the awards appear to be gilt silver, this is not at all surprising.  Are you aware that it was not unusual for important and affluent people to have numerous medal bars tailored for themselves?  The ones with gold decorations were worn to gala events and the ones with gilt were worn on less formal occasions. 

Here too I have to disagree, silver-gilt in Prussian decorations usually points us at a post-1916 production date, which given the decorations (starting off in 1870, which means the recipient was born in or before 1852) could illicite suspicion regarding the pieces. @Komtur points us at the possibility that the HoH is either a post-1918 exile-production or a private-purchase piece. Simply because it is silver-gilt does not mean that it is private-purchase. There are official pieces made in silver-gilt and private-purchase pieces made in gold. The material alone is not enough to base a conclusion on. The conclusion was made based on the material and the quality.

 

 

Is medalbar a Frankenstein-piece? I don't know. There are some things about this bar that assure me that is genuine whereas some other features make me frown. There is not enough 'wrong' to consider it fake or an amalgamation, but there is also not enough 'right' for me to consider it genuine (at this point). It is a civilian bar and those are always tricky. They are incredibly hard to identify (those who can are masters in their art, hence the reason we call them wizards sometimes) and there was much less control regarding the right way of wearing decorations. The little missing red cross on the second KO4 could be damage. Someone could have left out the bow on the RAO3Kr. Perhaps the HoH is a private-purchase or exile-piece. Lots of 'if' which can only be solved through discussion and the meeting of minds.

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[VtwinVince]

I would like to have this Schnalle in hand, but barring that, I don't see it as something put together. I have owned bars with missing bits, such as the Schleife, and this does not bother me.