Just a little ribbon bar ...

[saschaw]

Recently, I was able to purchase this ribbon bar on Ebay.de for an insane amount of money (No, I do NOT want to talk about it! ), and today it arrived here. It is M1915 style and has:

 

- Prussia, Iron Cross 1870 IInd class with 1897 oak leaves;

- Prussia, Long Service Cross;

- Prussia, War Medal 1870/71;

- German Empire, South West Africa medal (steel or bronce?!);

- Prussia, Centenary medal 1897;

- Baden, Knight's Cross Ist or IInd class, with swords.

First question, and the (for now) most important: is this a authentic 1915 bar, or isn't it?

The rest won't be to difficult, and I do yet have some ideas, but first just(!), please, some opinions wheater this bar is genuine or isn't ...

 

PS: A bar like this is on the cover of Nimmergut's "Bänderkatalog", 1991 - but has oak leaves on the swords of the Zähringer as well .

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by saschaw

[saschaw]

And to your information: the bar itself is made fom brass (or something similar, non magnetic), whereas the needle is iron ... is this a good or a bad sign?

 

 

And by the way, the ribbons do, of course, not glow under "magic black light".

Opinions, please, Opinions ...

 

 

And the mentioned book's cover's here:

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by saschaw

[Paul R]

I look forward to seeing what the two Ricks have to say about it. I am not too keen on it. It looks recently constructed to me. I could be wrong.

Anyway your Baden, Knight's Cross , with swords has a different clasp than the one on the cover of the book(unless my eyes are failing me), although all the other details seem to match perfectly..

Regards

Paul

[Guest Rick Research]

The metal backing appears to be Godet's style hinge and pin but their wares are almost invariably on a light gray backing.

Are those ribbons SILK?

I am not happy about the "25." many many many of those started showing up a couple of years ago. can you bend it with your fingernail? If it is soft PLIABLE metal....

[saschaw]

Thanks for your opinions that far ...

The metal backing appears to be Godet's style hinge and pin but their wares are almost invariably on a light gray backing.

Are those ribbons SILK?

Are you talking about bars from ca. 1915 or bars from the 1920ies?

Honestly, I do not know how to recognize silk ribbons, but they are looking fine to me, and might be silk ...

I am not happy about the "25." many many many of those started showing up a couple of years ago. can you bend it with your fingernail? If it is soft PLIABLE metal....

Hmm, hard to tell, as I don't want to destroy anything. It looks rather like silver or silvered brass.

By the way, the bar it IS in my humble opinion that one that has been published on the "B?nderkatalog" in 1991, but a .... fool has removed the oaks from the Z?hringer's ribbon - the swords might still be the same. A made a picture and marked some points on the ribbons that (I guess) you could not fake with ribbons ...

Opinions now?!

PS: The picture is better on the catalogue itself, it got worse with scanning.

Since when have ribbon bars been faked? As I know, almost noone has been interrested in them that much still some years ago, and maybe in 1991 (16 years ago), noone would have faked a ribbon bar at all?!

[Paul R]

Thanks for posting the new scans... I stand corrected. I am now convinced that these two ribbon bars are one and the same. It is a shame that someone broke or replaced the clasp.

I am now seeing more reproduction ribbon bars than genuine these days. (especially on sites like Ebay). These are being faked like crazy.

Regards

Paul

[saschaw]

I am now seeing more reproduction ribbon bars than genuine these days. (especially on sites like Ebay). These are being faked like crazy.

Hard, but true - I know it as well. But were are talking about quite a long time ago when it - if it shall be a modern fake - yet existed: in 1991.

I guess I will contact Mr. Nimmergut, he may know something about the bar, whose it was, or if he made it himself.

[Paul R]

Again, I am no expert at all. The Ricks should come in now. I agree with you in that I dont think that they were heavily reproduced(if at all) back in the early 90s.

[Lukasz Gaszewski]

Tats?chlich, it looks like it is the same rack! The upper right corner is very much convincing indeed. Congratulations then!

Still, it doesn't tell if the ribbons are genuine; only the EKII looks pretty old, the rest seem quite new. But maybe it's just the photo...

J?rg Nimmergut's address from his website (http://www.joerg-nimmergut.de/html/kontakt.html):

Zentralstelle f?r wissenschaftliche Ordenskunde - ZwO

J?rg Nimmergut ? Eversbuschstra?e 108 ? D-80999 M?nchen

Telefon ++ 49 (0) 89 8 12 29 63 ? Fax ++ 49 (0) 89 8 13 15 41

Email: joerg.nimmergut@t-online.de

Lukasz

[saschaw]

Thanks Lukasz for the adress of Nimmergut, but I had it yet, have been in contact with him for something else last year.

The ribbons are indeed shiny, but the yellow ribbon as well looks more old, and the EK ribbon of course. Might old silk ribbons still be that shiny? I think it might be ...

[webr55]

Honestly, I do not know how to recognize silk ribbons, but they are looking fine to me, and might be silk ...

I had the same problem with another bar some time ago. Silk feels very different, much softer to the fingertips, if you compare 30s bars and WW1 bars.

[Mike K]

Hi,

I don't know much about ribbon bars, but in reference to when ribbon bars were being faked I can state that my "Ohio" parts bar was purchased well before 1990. The brass catch on the one at the top of the thread looks pretty similar to my fake bar as well.

Re the comparison between the bar in question and the bar on the cover of the bandenkatalog, I would strongly suggest that they are not the same bar. On the 25 device, the top stroke of the 5 appears much thicker on the bandenkatalog example (and the curl of the 5 also appears different) and the white "stiching" between the Frontkampferkreuz and the SW Afrika ribbon is to me very different. That "ding" on the top right corner is also different - more pronounced on the bandenkatalog example imo.

Looks more like someone has faked the ribbon bar on the cover of the bandenkatalog?

Regards

Mike

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gents,

my tuppence worth, despite the quality of the pictures, the top bar in Post 5 seems to have newer ribbons, the lower bar seems to be more faded, particularly the last two ribbons. .

Kevin in Deva

[Stogieman]

I think your new purchase is a copy. The oaks on the EK2 don't match, point for point. I believe this is new, made with leftover stock. Sorry.

[webr55]

Looks more like someone has faked the ribbon bar on the cover of the bandenkatalog?

... but didn't have the proper Z?hringen oakleaves, maybe?

[Guest Rick Research]

Ribbon bars have been massively faked since the 1980s, though it was the early 1990s-- about 1991-- before we Innocent Souls first caught on to that.

There are more fakes out there than originals for longer bars. The earliest ones often had completely hand made (crudely) All Brass backings and were the product of a member of the OMSA ever-after referred to as Mister Ohio Parts Fraud. Those ribbon bars often had brand new synthetic ribbons, the whites of which flash bright electric blue under a blacklight.

Because left over original ribbon stock WAS left over because it wasn't wanted back then, most of those bars from the 1990s are truly stupid combinations, and festooned with things like fake double-ribbons SS runes.

In the last several years, a treasure trove of original 1930s ribbon backings that were never used have been used as the skeletons of fake bars coming out of Germany, with as far as I've seen original ribbons but still unlikely combinations.

I haven't seen Mister Ohio Parts Fraud in my territory for several years, so perhaps he has gone to his Eternal Reward. OMSA members will know, since his international awards in plastic pages in 3 ring binders displays (with many brand new American medals and lit magnifying lenses set up for close up viewing) will be familiar to convention and show goers.

A couple of years ago, many fake devices CAST from originals in some sort of shiny silver pewter-like metal and of course not enamelled or finished in other colors started appearing from Sweden. Those are soft and clearly cast when looked at closely.

The fake odd hard gray alloy "25s" I have seen back as far as MOPF-- say around 2001. I just don't like the GRAY color, which is not correct for any period German devices. Should have bought one of his "lovely" 1930s backings (he was using them by then) "1870" bars, but didn't expect him to disappear the way he has.

There are more fake ribbon bars out there than could have equipped entire Wehrmacht army corps.

I have never seen an original Godet ribbon bar with no cloth backing.

I do agree with you that your ribbon bar and the one on the B?nderkatalog are one and the same. The cover illustration is different looking because of the rough matte cover material. The fact that it is the one on the cover doesn't make it original, alas. Some Recently Naughty Person may well have stripped the backing to replace devices, though.

Idiots often do stupid things.

[Daniel Krause]

That bar drived me crazy since years.

That it appeared now at ebay is amazing.

Original or not I cannot say without a in-hand inspection.

IF ORIGINAL - You have a Prussian GENERAL there.

1870 service EK, XXV, 1870 medal, SWA most likely steel, Centenary, Baden BZ3bXE also from 1870 and nothing else because everything else was around the neck or on a sash.

Best regards

Daniel

[Stogieman]

I am sorry, I must disagree. They cannot be the same bar. If you look at the stitching pattern of white dashes on the left edge & right edge of the SWA ribbon they DO NOT match the illustration on the cover of Herr Nimmergutt's Banderkatalogue. Whether a different finish or not will NOT change the appearance of the stitching itself. The right edge is close, but note the clear differences in the WIDTH of the stitched on the right edge of the ribbon! Now, look closely at the SPACING (black) and actual stitches (white) on the left edge of the same ribbon. They DO NOT match.

Now, look very closely at the LEFT edge of the miniature 25 Oakleaves. Notice that the leaf edges (again) DO NOT match the illustartion on the cover. Now, look at the pin hanging out on the RIGHT edge of Saschaw's bar.... it is NOT visible on the illustration, is it? These two images are of DIFFERENT ribbon bars!

[saschaw]

They DO NOT match.

They do match indeed. I have both the catalogue and the bar in my hands, in front of me. The picture from the catalogue got very bad on the scanner, and is not that good at all (a bit to dark). Do you have the catalogue? If so (and I hope you've got this helpful book), please compare the yellow ribbon's structure. I'm convinced it is 100% impossible to fake(!) some features ribbons get while being worked with. It IS the bar shown on the book, but that is NOT an evidence for it beeing genuine ...

Now, look at the pin hanging out on the RIGHT edge of Saschaw's bar.... it is NOT visible on the illustration, is it? These two images are of DIFFERENT ribbon bars!

That is not the pin, but the "Splinte"(?) of the swords, as we can see on reverse. Someone has "worked" on the Z?hringer devices.

That bar drived me crazy since years.

That it appeared now at ebay is amazing.

Original or not I cannot say without a in-hand inspection.

IF ORIGINAL - You have a Prussian GENERAL there.

1870 service EK, XXV, 1870 medal, SWA most likely steel, Centenary, Baden BZ3bXE also from 1870 and nothing else because everything else was around the neck or on a sash.

Best regards

Daniel

Thanks Daniel as well for your opinion. I know what this bar has to be if original, that's why I bought it.

It has been on Ebay some years ago, might have been in 2003 or in 2004, with the last device completely missing, but the swords being given to the buyer seperately. I was financially to week (and yet to small ) to buy it and passed, but know I knew I had to do it, risking to buy a expensive fake. My feeling's still not to bad, might be because it is my bar and I don't want to have a fake actually.

I found by coincidence a picture of a Prussian general wearing almost(!) the same combination, but the Z?hringer without swords. Not a match, but showed me what it has to be: a general's bar.

[Ulsterman]

Rick:

Mr. Kelly of Massachusetts is now (and has been) making big bars-with your favorite minis hanging down. He has the pieces made by a local modeler. He is also doing medal bars-some obvious-others not so much. The stitching and brand new red felt backing are key, because a few replacement medals and a few hours in weak tea and you'd have a $300 bar easy.

He gave me quite a comprehensive lesson on how he does it last month-and told me who he has sold some to round your way.

[Ralph A]

Consider: the bars were originally part of one man's set. Nimmergut's was the worn example; yours was the recipient's "spare." At some time over the years, yours got altered.

[saschaw]

Consider: the bars were originally part of one man's set. Nimmergut's was the worn example; yours was the recipient's "spare." At some time over the years, yours got altered.

Hmm, you didn't get they're the same?! We are talking about ONE bar ...

[Ralph A]

I concede, after a closer look.

I have a set of duplicate ribbon bars to the same man and when I compare the differences there are VERY few. The fabric stretches in the same places and the stitching is identical on both. You would think them to be the same bar if I showed them to you one after the other. The moire' patterns even match! Weird, and scary.... I believe it might be easier to fake and duplicate these things than some seem to think it is.

I'm experienced with fabrics and stitch-work, so this is not an uninformed opinion.

Let me reiterate, however, that in this instance the bars seem to be the same.

[saschaw]

So it is the bar from the picture, the ribbons are silk, the stitching is fine and nothing glows under blacklight. It seems to be a Godet bar, but the known Godet bars have a grey backing if they are World War Era, or a red if they are pre-war (about 1900 and so on). This one might be a very early bar from the war, from about 1915, when the small ribbon bar was introduced (this was in 1915, wasn't it?). I to myself still believe (and it might be up to believing) that the bar is genuine. Still any opinions, maybe from those, who meanwhile held it in hands?

 

PS: Mr. Nimmergut told me that he cannot remember where the picture of the bar was taken from, but most likely from a Auction House in Munich.

 

Mr. J. Nimmergut said:

Zum Bänderkatalog (Titel) kann ich leider nichts beitragen. Die Erstauflage liegt 16 Jahre zurück (1991) und soweit mir erinnerlich, stammten die Bilder aus einem Auktionshaus, vermutlich in München.

Edited July 28, 2023 by saschaw