Soviet Medal House

[Jani Tiainen]

I have been told that the Russian govermnment is bringing pressure, "Southebys-style", on this auction and that thr Soviet pieces may be pulled. Does anyone know?

Yes they do!

They requested us to pull out most of the "State-awards" - and claimed they are illegally obtained and smuggled from Russia.

Following the request we have taken necessary steps to further investigate this matter. We

have contacted the consignors again and received credible and sufficient assurances of the legal ownership of

the items in question. We will definetly need detailed information of each item from Russian Authorities.

All the items mentioned in the letter from Russian authorities were produced in large

numbers and are neither unique nor represent extraordinary historical value. Similar items are openly

and freely sold at many European and North American auctions as well as at a large number of specialized

web sites all over the world. Some of these items were not even the state awards Russian

authorities referred to. This fact has been clearly outlined in our sale catalog.

So we were very surprised to encounter such hostile reaction of Russian authorities to the sale of orders and medals

of the former USSR - since we thought the Sotheby's case was totally different because of very highly awarded groups of Marshalls I do not understant this situation at all. I do not know exactly what happened with UBS, but I heard some items were forced to pull out from their auction as well.

All of these items are legal to sell in Finland. I am positive none of the items have been stolen and history of many of the lots goes all the way back to its original owner.

Needless to say, that as Finland-based company, which follows and obeys all laws of the Republic of Finland,

we are prepared to fully cooperate with Finnish authorities in resolution of this matter.

Jani Tiainen

MedalHouse OY

[Gerd Becker]

Hello Jani,

these are just minor problems, really nothing to worry about.

I have talked with other collectors about this and we came to the conclusion, that, concerning the Nevsky, the above mentioned theory might be the most likely.

To Lot 419: I see, you mention, that its a suspension order. I was just confused about the estimate, as i thought it was meant to be a screwback type. My bad, sorry.

Lot 426 is probably a simple reissue or duplicate, issued in 1955/56 for a lost or stolen piece. Victory Parade Issue are called only the orders, which were actually changed for the 1945 Victory Parade. But still a very desirable piece with this low number.

And i may be wrong about the 4th award Order of the Red Banner. Another collector told me yesterday, that 4th award ORB?s were observed with higher numbers, even in the 9.XXX

But all in all you did a great job with the descriptions. And there is a lot of excellent stuff to bid on.

One last point: Does the pdf-file provide bigger pictures?

best regards,

Gerd

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks for this, Jani. Your approach seems to me to be completely ethical and legal and that the shrill bullying attitudes shown from the Russian side need to be met -- as you have done -- with calm logic and rationalisty.

Keep up the good work, and thanks for a lovely first auction offering!

[Riley1965]

Jani,

You have put together a GREAT auction!!! The catalog is a good referrence to use long after the auction. I'm glad you are going ahead with the auction. Don't be bullied by anyone!! My only regret is that financially I am unable to participate in this auction. But, PLEASE, continue to send me your auction catalog. Hopefully I can bid on some items at the next auction. I am sad to miss out on some groups to Soviet medical personnel.

Best wishes for your auction!!!

Doc

[GREAKLY]

Gentlemen,

I had a pleasure to view the letter from the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet that accompanies the above-mentioned Nevsky. Here is the story: The original owner died sometime in 1979-1980. His son wanted to keep the order but couldn't find the original booklet. So he wrote the request to the PVS asking to send him a copy of the document so that he could legally keep the piece. The official PVS response letter (in original PVS envelope) comes for sale together with the documented Nevsky (but, unfortunately, was not pictured due to the lack of space). The letter dated 1980 is addressed to awardee's sun, confirms that his father was awarded with the piece in question and gives him permission to keep the piece. The booklet you saw on the picture is also mentioned in that letter as "sent alongside".

So, basically, it's a later-type duplicate booklet issued in 1980 for 1942-type Nevsky and given to awardee's sun so that he can legally keep his father's award. As a part of the package comes the original PVS envelope with postal stamps and etc. This whole set actually tells a lot about how the Soviet system worked when replacing awards/documents.

[GREAKLY]

Gerd,

Regarding Lot 290. The explanation is very simple. The awardee must have been a Baltic-German or some Baltic (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia) national. During WWI he fought in the German Army and received EKII. After the end of the war he must have joined the FreiCorps and fought in the Baltics together with White Russians (North Western Army) against Reds. The "Baltic Landwehr Cross" (some sort of local militia volunteer unit) suggests that the awardee most likely somehow originated from the area and fought there for some time. Baltic Landwehr was partially made of Russians and, partially, of locals and some Germans. They fought mainly Reds and, to some extend, Brttis. A number of cases are known when the command of the Russian side of this unit was giving the awards (often just award documents as they ran out of medals quite fast) to the "allies" (Germans/Balts). In this case the St.Stanislas is of the type made in Berlin in 1920-ties, which is another "plus". After the whole thing the awardee must have stayed in Germany (he could be one of those MEMEL Germans), received H-Burg Cross and, later, served in the Wehrmacht and received the Long Service piece.

There is a gentleman in germany who works on the book about FreiCorps medals. I believe he has a similar medal bar. Also a number of German FreiCorps medal bars has been seen with Russian St.George cross. One, I believe, was pictured on the cover of the BDOS magazine a few years ago. So cases of German medal bars with Russian awards are rare but not unknown.

[Gerd Becker]

Excellent explanation for the Medalbar and thanks a lot for the clarification about the Nevsky, Greakly

Gerd

[Jani Tiainen]

Yes they do!

They requested us to pull out most of the "State-awards" - and claimed they are illegally obtained and smuggled from Russia.

...More information about this situation:

Last week Finnish ministry of Justice contacted me and wanted us to pull out the items since they had got request from Interpol Moscow and through Finnish Internal Police department. I sent our explanation including the reqest for compansation if we end up pulling out the items. Finally today Finnish ministry did not seize the sale but wanted more information from Russia.

I still do not know what is gonna happened, but it seems that no-one - for some reason dares to get the warrant to stop the auction. And If I do not get official warrant, I can not stop the auction because then I do not have any body to request compensation.

If we managed to proceed the sale it is really gonna be surprising after all these accuses and bullying...

I will keep you updated.

Jani Tiainen

MedalHouse OY

Edited March 12, 2007 by Jani Tiainen

[Guest Rick Research]

This whole P-C bureaucratic nonsense is getting clinically insane.

I suggest VERY VERY STRONGLY making, publicizing, and distributing as many copies as possoble showing

"letter from the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet that accompanies the above-mentioned Nevsky. Here is the story: The original owner died sometime in 1979-1980. His son wanted to keep the order but couldn't find the original booklet. So he wrote the request to the PVS asking to send him a copy of the document so that he could legally keep the piece. The official PVS response letter (in original PVS envelope) comes for sale together with the documented Nevsky (but, unfortunately, was not pictured due to the lack of space). The letter dated 1980 is addressed to awardee's sun, confirms that his father was awarded with the piece in question and gives him permission to keep the piece. The booklet you saw on the picture is also mentioned in that letter as "sent alongside". "

as legal precedent and proof positive that since the SOVIET government recognized that awards were private and inheritable property, then the vast paper-shoving organs of the Russian Federation have ZERO claim on family items

then, now, or forever.

And if worst comes to worst, you've got a standing invitation of political asylum here.

Good for you standing up to these idiots.

The down side, of course, is that having been "pinged" by freakin' INTERPOL, every time you ever FLY, you are probably now going to be strip-searched and have your luggage rifled by minimum wage airport employees because you are now on the Watch List through all eternity or until the whole rotten, insane system comes down. Aaargh.

[Dave Danner]

UBS did indeed pull all of their Soviet items on the day of the auction, with an announcement that it was due to pressure from the Russian government. UBS is a major Swiss bank, with significant investments worldwide, including the Russian Federation, so the Russian authorities have more leverage than just calling Interpol and making allegations.

Note that the Russian authorities showed no interest in Imperial Russian orders even though, by Russian law, most of these were probably state (or crown) property too. In the Putin era, they only seem interested in recapturing their Soviet past.

[GREAKLY]

Rick,

I do not see how posting of the 1980 letter helps. You see, since late 1970-ties Soviet/Russian government does no longer challenge the ownership/inheritance issue of orders and medals. After the death of the original recipient all families are allowed to keep all orders and medals (not just OGPWs) but are expected to pass them through generations in the "father to the sun" style. On the other hand, the awardee's families (in RUSSIA) are not allowed neither to sell the medals (it's still a crime) nor to take them out of the country without government permission (the original recipient, actually, can do that as long as he carries the award booklet with him). So Russian logic in the Sotheby's-UBS-MedalHouse case is: if the medals turned up outside of the coutry (and the authorities have no record of any export licence) then, all the medals have been exported illegally and need to be returned.

In my opinion, the key issue in this case is that Russia some wants to claim exclusive "ownership" (so to speak) or "jurisdiction" over any Soviet order and medal that turns up pretty much anywhere in the world. When, in fact, when Soviet Union broke up all the Soviet ODMs that were present in a certain ex-Soviet republic became the "property" (again, so to speak) of that republic and were governed by the laws of that republic. Given, that population of Soviet Union in 1991 was close to 300,000,000 and Russia's population now is just over 140,000,000 roughly means that every other medal you see on the market DOES NOT originate from Russia (theory of probability). And in many ex-Soviet republics not only it is legal to sell and/or export these items but, in fact, such actions are highly appreciated. Estonian parlament just voted to demolish the 1945 monument to the Soviet soldier at Tallinn military cemetery. Do you think they care about Soviet medals? Sure. In a way: the more are gone, the better it is...

It all would come down to tracing the history and whereabouts of EVERY order/medal (and, of course, its owner) from the moment it was issued till present. Which is an a suicidal task. It might be possible in case with Ushakov 1-st (a handful of recipients, all being well-known guys from high places) but it's absollutely dead-end in a case of little-man medal. Most of you at this forum have ordered/done some research and know what a hard task it is even to determine the awardee. Now imagine the task ten times bigger: all awardee's life (and life of his/her heirs) and momements should be traced in a way who/what went where and when. Absolutely pointless task anyway, as, at the end, all the family has to say that grandpa died a while ago and they have no idea where he put his medals...

The explanation of such sudden interest to Soviet ODMs is, actually, quite simple. It just happens to be an election year in Russia. So every public serwant is trying to make as much fuzz as possible to prove his usefullness to the Motherland. In addition to that the government Agency behind this witch hunt has just been merged with another one. Half of the people down there or so are likely to loose their jobs. So the FUZZ issue just turned into matter of survival.

Politics...

[Guest Rick Research]

Very interesting political demographics point.

I don't happen to have anything that came out of the Baltic successor states. As it happens all of my former Soviet groups have come from the Ukraine or from former Soviet emigrants to the United States.

Are we to understand that the government of the Ukrainian Republic, at least, has many many ANY things more important to do than waste everyone's time with this nonsense? Certainly they could have a little chat with Interpol's surplus-to-needs personnel about Geiger counters, air travel, catering, and things of rather more pressing concern than the individual whereabouts of 870,000 Defense of the Caucasus Medals. Maybe while the golobal organs of security are making house to house searches for 2 1/2 million long service Red Stars, they might coincidentally turn up some of the barbarians who have, can, and will continue to slaughter ALL of our children. But that's apparently a lesser priority.

Meanwhile, citizens of the current Russian Federation are more than legally welcome to buy up every single United States Medal of Honor (our Heroes' Gold Star) which my own government, in its perverse stupidity, bans my fellow citizens from saving, preserving, and honoring-- as we do for the awards of the former Soviet Union. Madness, everywhere. Madness.

[GREAKLY]

Excellent point, Rick. Someone in YOUR government has made a few extra "political" points from MoH sale ban. Someone is making them as we speak from all the "Stolen Valor" non-sense. Russia just simply joins the club...

[Belaruski]

On the other hand, if it's the law, it's the law!

Plus it is much easier to track down Soviet medals when they appear in a catalogue, than it is to track down corrupt businessmen when they are in your cabinet..

[JBFloyd]

A sidelight to the Russian desire to have back its cultural patrimony is an article in the 16 March issue of "Antiques and The Arts Weekly". I guess it's all a matter of perspective...

MOSCOW, RUSSIA (AP).

The head of Russia's cultural heritage watchdog agency said recently that the country would not hand over an art collection taken out of Germany after World War II for free.

The collection was removed bu Soviet Captain Viktor Baldin and later transferred to Russia's State Hermitage museum in St. Petersburg.

"It was us who preserved and restored it. It means that we should also enjoy some preferences," Boris Boyarskov, head of Rosokhrankultura cultural heritage watchdog, was quoted as telling reporters by the Interfax news agency.

Baldin carried 362 drawings out of Germany in a suitcase and kept them for three years under a bed in his office in the city of Zagorsk, according to Russian news reports. The drawings and paintings included works by such artists as Titian, Rembrandt, Delacroix, van Gogh, Durer and Goya.

In 1948, Baldin, a painting restoration expert by profession, presented the collection to a state museum and, in 1991, it was officially handed over to the Hermitage.

Boyarskov declined to specify the conditions under which the art collection could be returned, saying the issue was still being discussed by Russian and German officials. Russia and Germany have long sparred over the fate of so-called trophy art, thousands of valuable objects taken from Germany in the waning days of World War II.

Germany and other countries have pressed for the return of the collections, which they ague were taken illegally.

A 2000 Russian law distinguished between illegal trophies -- taken without a military commander's sanction -- and those Moscow sees as restitution for the 27 million Soviet lives lost, 100 museums destroyed and the ruin of entire cities during the war."

Edited March 15, 2007 by JBFloyd

[NavyFCO]

A 2000 Russian law distinguished between illegal trophies -- taken without a military commander's sanction -- and those Moscow sees as restitution for the 27 million Soviet lives lost, 100 museums destroyed and the ruin of entire cities during the war."

Great article Jeff!

Perhaps we (as westerners) should simply view Soviet awards as restitution for the Cold War. I think that holds the same logic...

Dave

[rboomsma]

I got one too. Was wondering how they got my address, as I don't recall ever buying anything from them. Nice catalogue, I will be keeping it.

Sorry to hear the soviet items got pulled from the auction.

Have you ever heard about http://www.medalhouse.com/ ?

I have received a catalogue from them today. I do not know who gave them my address, because I have never heard of this Auction House before. They have some pretty Soviet orders and medals for sale, but I do not intend to buy any. I wonder if many Auction House have this tactic to sell us there stuff. It must be pretty expansive for them to send a 100 color pages catalogue to anybody in the mail like that.

Edited March 16, 2007 by rboomsma

[Christian Zulus]

Perhaps we (as westerners) should simply view Soviet awards as restitution for the Cold War. I think that holds the same logic...

Dave

A little bit .... , but it should be stated.

Dear Dave,

sorry, but I can not follow your "logic" :

1. The "Cold War" did not cost 27 million lives of NATO-citizens.

2. The CCCP did not receive any restitutions from Western Germay (Austria paid a lot of restitutions!).

3. The "Cold War" had been caused by the Western Allies. *

* After the sudden and unexpected death of President Roosevelt the (British influenced) "International"-group succeeded in a putsch - or coup d'etat - against the "Morgenthau"-group, which wanted to go on with the great and ambitious political concepts (UNO, peaceful cooperation with the CCCP, neutral Germany, etc., etc.) of President Roosevelt. All "Morgenthau"-people lost their key-positions in the US-Administration . Instead of going on with the successful economic cooperation between USA & CCCP (since the end of the 1920 the US helped to build up the whole heavy industry in the CCCP!), the new US-Adminstration stopped everything and went into a new politic of confrontation and "roll back". That has been the beginning of the "Cold War".

Due to the fact, that the US-economy lost the hughe markets in the CCCP & Eastern Europe, the new economic experts in the USA thought, that the creation of the "Russian Bear" as the new hughe enemy of the western people, of "freedom" and "democrazy" might induce a hughe demand of defense goods (the defense industry is since the 1940s the backbone of US economics!). But that concept didn't really work. So, for helping the declining US-economy the wise guys in Washingtion had to create - from time to time - new small ("hot") wars as an offspring of the "Cold War": Korea, Vietnam, ..., Middle East, Yugoslavia & Iraq.

The fact is - in the history of economy -, that the hughe investments & sales in & to the CCCP helped the USA (and also Europe) to escape the "Big Depression" of around 1930. Armies of unemployed workers & experts from the West found new (and very well paid!) jobs for some years in the CCCP.

As a historian, I assume, that if President Roosevelt would have survived 2 or 3 more years more, our world would look a little bit different: Stability in economic growth, no "Cold War", no small "Hot Wars", a UNO as a powerful institutions, no "Iron Curtain", no divided Germany, no communist Hungary, etc., etc.

Economics are the causes for history - and for "Cold Wars" & "Hot Wars".

Just my remarks to the topic "Cold War".

Best regards

Christian

Edited March 16, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Jani Tiainen]

Sorry to hear the soviet items got pulled from the auction.

So far not pulled from the auction.

Jani

[Ed_Haynes]

Good news, Jani, and good luck. Remember: You are fighting for all of us!

Tell the Russian government that they're welcome to bid??

Edited March 16, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[NavyFCO]

Just my remarks to the topic "Cold War".

Thanks for your input.

[Blitz]

Luckily I'm here watching Jani's back. Tomorrow will be an interesting day for sure. No hassle from the Russian embassy today during the viewing... Let's hope it will stay that way.

[Guest Rick Research]

Nobody messes with Finns!!!

[NavyFCO]

Today's the big day for the auction!

I will be interested to see what the final prices on items are.

I for one will not be bidding. There are some items I like, but given the "estimates" plus 18% plus shipping and handling would be excessive and well beyond what I could personally afford. Ah well... maybe next time.

Dave

[Christian Zulus]

Today's the big day for the auction!

I will be interested to see what the final prices on items are.

I for one will not be bidding. There are some items I like, but given the "estimates" plus 18% plus shipping and handling would be excessive and well beyond what I could personally afford. Ah well... maybe next time.

Dave

Dear Dave,

dear Gentlemen,

and we should not forget, that the prices are in (expensive) EURO . So, we have to add another 30 % surplus to our calculations ...

The "Russian Affair" won't make the items cheaper either ...

But an auction with that excellent stuff and sooooo close to the Russian main market for Soviet Orders & Medals will be a good indicator. The hammer prices will show where the journey will go in the near future.

If I would have some affluent ten tousends of EUR in my pocket, I know what to bid for .

I hope, that we might see the result list as soon as possible at this thread .

Best regards

Christian