Crown Order w/Swords Questions

[Scott]

I'm a bit out of my lane, so please forgive my ignorance... Was the Prussian Crown Order with swords always awarded with an iron cross-type black & white ribbon? The one posted below is unmarked; does it have the characteristics of an authentic period piece? (it's not mine). Also, approximately how many of these were awarded?

Thanks in advance.

Scott

[Wild Card]

Hi Scott,

According to Nimmergut?s magnum opus the correct ribbon for this decoration is the ?Iron Cross? ribbon; although, curiously, for illustrative purposes he shows one with a plain (blue?) ribbon. William Hamelman in ?Of Red Eagles and Royal Crowns? confirms the use of the ?Iron Cross? ribbon for this decoration as well.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Bernd D]

Normally it was awarded with the black ribbon with white stripes or a few with the white ribbon and black stripes. The iron crosses ribbons.

But during WWI a few decoration of the PRAOx and PKOx were awarded with the ribbon according to the regulation, i.e. for he PKO the blue one. In the certificates it is written ?am statutenm??igen Bande? . Some Turkish officers received it this way. So this combination is possible. If it was always like this you will never know.

[Scott]

Thank you gentlemen!

Does the cross I posted look authentic? Are there known unmarked examples? Also, does anyone have an idea of the number awarded?

Scott

Edited June 7, 2007 by Scott

[W McSwiggan]

To clarify - I hope - the war ribbon was normal for awards of both Red Eagle & Royal Crown Orders with swords for German nationals.

My understanding is that foreign recipients received awards "with swords" on statute ribbons.

Now a follow on question is - how were Austrians treated? I can not testify with certainty - perhaps Rick Research or another of our experts can enlighten - I hope so!

Normally it was awarded with the black ribbon with white stripes or a few with the white ribbon and black stripes. The iron crosses ribbons.

But during WWI a few decoration of the PRAOx and PKOx were awarded with the ribbon according to the regulation, i.e. for he PKO the blue one. In the certificates it is written ?am statutenm??igen Bande? . Some Turkish officers received it this way. So this combination is possible. If it was always like this you will never know.

Edited June 7, 2007 by W McSwiggan

[Wild Card]

Thank you gentlemen!

Does the cross I posted look authentic?

Scott

Hi Scott,

Since you asked, I do have an uneasy feeling about the swords on the example in post #1 - their hilts and length. For comparison, below is an example marked to Wagner. However I would defer to some of our more knowledgeable members for a really definitive opinion.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Guest Rick Research]

I have ZERO experience with these Orders themselves, but the swords do look strangely long in the example starting this thread.

Eric Ludvigsen's figures show

Crown Order 4th Class

Swords, on combatant war ribbon = 1,687 as of January 1913

Swords, on white-black war ribbon for those with noncombatant status = 335 (a number of these were subsequently changed to "black whites" especially for the 1904/06 war)

Swords on statute ribbon = 49 (33 of these were during Boxer Rebellion and Herero/Hottentot war, spanning 1901 to 1907 and the others were sprinkled between 1864 and 1873 for the wars of 1864, 1866, and 1870/71)

Eric cites regulations that non-Prussians were to be awarded the statute ribbon when they received the swords. This obviously was never applied literally to the colonial awards, when all members of the East Asian Expeditionary Force and Schutztruppen were--like the navy--considered "Imperial" forces. So presumably any actually on the blue ribbon with swords went to NON-GERMANS.

However, loose ribbon is meaningless. Anybody can slide anything on any time. The only real way to be sure a ribbon is original is if it is permanently MOUNTED in a medal bar.

[Scott]

Thanks for all the info and opinions gentlemen - most informative!

Scott

[VtwinVince]

The quality of the enamel work does not look up to snuff, either.

[Josef Rietveld]

Hi Scott, how are the swords fixed on the center corpus? as far as i know original swords are always screwed, while later added swords are normally soldered

just my two cents

haynau

[Scott]

Haynau, Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, the cross is not mine and those photos are all I have. From the feedback, I think I'll wait for something a bit more "textbook."

Scott

[Ulsterman]

my 2 pfennigs:

[Josef Rietveld]

More than 2 pfennigs, seems to be a realsilver reichsmark. Sorry, Iam little bit austro-focused. what is the last medal on the bar?

haynau

[Claudio]

@ Haynau: it should be the "Jubil?umsmedaille 1908 f?r Ausl?nder

Silberne Internationale Inhaber - Jubil?umsmedaille 1908 f?r die Offiziere der ausl?ndischen Regimenter, deren Inhaber Kaiser Franz Joseph I. war." I took the liberty to take an image from a Austrian dealer's website you surely know.

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited June 8, 2007 by Claudio

[Bernd D]

@ Haynau: it should be the "Jubil?umsmedaille 1908 f?r Ausl?nder

Silberne Internationale Inhaber - Jubil?umsmedaille 1908 f?r die Offiziere der ausl?ndischen Regimenter, deren Inhaber Kaiser Franz Joseph I. war." I took the liberty to take an image from a Austrian dealer's website you surely know.

Ciao,

Claudio

It is a picture of Victor Delius. According to the Prussian Milit?r-Wochenblatt (1901) it ist he Austrian War Medal. Delius was in China and GSWA. His home unit was the IR 77. He got the KO4x in 1906.

Bernd

[Claudio]

...then it should be this one!

Ciao,

Claudio

[Ulsterman]

It is -mere spectrem shift!

[medalnet]

The crown order that started this thread has those typical swords used by the firm of Godet.

[Wild Card]

The crown order that started this thread has those typical swords used by the firm of Godet.

What year?

[Dave Danner]

I had a long discussion with Eric Ludvigsen about these Crown Orders several years' ago, but unfortunately I don't remember the details and sadly we have lost Eric's wisdom. I have a "non-textbook" example with the longer swords. i.e., not from one of the official makers like Wagner but probably a Godet as Andreas mentions, whose provenance Eric vouched for. I too would prefer a "textbook" example, but for now am satisfied with what I have.

[Kurt Donch]

Gentlemen,

On the original question of the ribbon colour, there is a PKO2X on the blue statute ribbon awarded to a Royal Marine colonel for Pekin 1900 (legations defence) in the RM museum in Portsmouth. This would tally with what was said earlier that PKOX to foreigners were regularly on the statute ribbon.

Kind regards,

Kurt

[medalnet]

What year?

one will never know

Here another regular Wagner:

[Rod]

I just bought a 4th class Crown Order with a "W" on the bottom edge of the 6 o'clock arm. The swords are said to be GOLD while the rest of the cross is bronze guilt. Sort of hard to tell the difference. I am told it is circa 1900 and awarded to german colonial troops. It has a blue ribbon.

Does any of this make sense?

Rod

Edited February 29, 2008 by Rod

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello Rod:

Your cross sounds like it is as it should be [except for the ribbon, which should be a black ribbon with two white side stripes (like an iron cross ribbon)]. The "W" should be rather roughly scratched into the bottom cross arm. This indicates that the piece was made by Wagner of Berlin.

I am not certain if the swords are supposed to be gold or not, but I am certain that there is someone on our forum who will know the answer. I am also not certain if the sword pieces should be threaded and screwed into the center of the cross, but I believe that this is correct for the period. And yes, these crosses were awarded for the DSWA and Boxer (China) campaigns. Do you have a photograph of it to share with us?

Unfortunately, there are copies of these about.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Rod]

SPM

Here is the obverse: